Ret paladin on PTR

[Badpaladin]

The 5 years I've had my paladin I've never had issues or problems getting into premades in BGs, that includes Pre BC, BC and Wrath. BG's isn't arena and will not follow the oh "you need this comp to work or its not worth it".

A 10 vs 10 and 15 vs 15 is a whole new ball game compared to arena, welcome to the big boy leagues.

But with so many buffs being homogenized, what can ret offer than another melee can't? If a warrior/DK brings more control and more damage, why bring a ret over another warrior/DK? Because BG's are going to be rated, I very much do expect X comp, Y comp groups because they're going to be the sole area where PvP is hugely competitive.

[Sindy]

Maybe it wasn't funny to you but it was to me and that's all that matters.

Oh it was funny. I like to see a good nut-kick video, or fart jokes too but that doesn't mean i want to watch 12 different acts doing the same thing. :P

[zealous]

But with so many buffs being homogenized, what can ret offer than another melee can't? If a warrior/DK brings more control and more damage, why bring a ret over another warrior/DK? Because BG's are going to be rated, I very much do expect X comp, Y comp groups because they're going to be the sole area where PvP is hugely competitive.

I seriously /facepalm at the naive people that think rated BGs are gonna be different from arena in principles of competition, FotM comps, strategic/tactical planning etc.

Gameplay ofc will be different, but people are going to figure out all the optimal comps and strats after 2 weeks of season 9 and I'm ready to bet my left nut ret won't be included in those.

We bring next to nothing that other melees don't, cleanse is gone, we got tarded ramp up time and rng dependency. Yes, that all just screams uber efficient pvp class! Yessir!

[Lucavian]

Here are my concerns so far with ret pallys:
Mastery "proc" - This seems to be a total waste of time 66% of the time. You either have 1 or 2 holy power, so your free TV proc is only the same as 1-2 holy power.

IMHO, ret pallys are so far from a finished state. Everything about them just SCREAMS RNG DPS.

That's not the way mastery works bro. Our mastery is a proc that allows us to utilize any HOLY POWER 'finisher' as though we had 3 holy power but without actually spending any holy power. Thus when you throw out that extra TV it's as though you just hit with a 3 HP TV (doesn't feel like it cause TV hits like a little girl). Everything else I agree with except you're leaving out one important RNG in that we get HP through divine purpose as well. So the more that favors us (and WHEN it favors us) the better off we are. Problem is sometimes it's wasted. If it procs on your CS that you just used to get your 3rd HP the proc doesn't count for anything because you can't get to 4 HP. IMO they should up it's chance and remove CS from one of the options. Making it less of a priority that we utilize CS over everything else. Instead they've lowered it I believe to 20% proc chance making it even less RNG favorable =( [20% proc chance data mined by mmo-champion, not confirmed by myself].

[Sindy]

You're all right. Ret is going to suck. You should probably quit.

[zealous]

You're all right. Ret is going to suck. You should probably quit.

Is that pro sarcasm or did you give in to the inevitability of the retpocalypse like we have?

[Swampmoose]

I didn't say thay had no right to do so, I said it is unfair to do so.

Changes are accepted by many, complete revamp is less subject to mass agreement.
Even if the class ends up "better" (what does it mean anyway...), it's still much different, and that might disgust some people.

I don't want to level a whole character and level enchanting and jewelcrafting again, please...

... but I trust Blizzard enough to know they'll come up, after time, with something pretty decent, even if, at the beginning the class is broken.

If ret is way behind in pvp for instance, we'll either get more survivability back, or get tools to be more offensive (like they want ret to be), and that's also fine with me.

One man's junk is another man's treasure. You might hate it, but many others have long awaited a change to the close your eyes and hit a button system. The new system is flawed but it is change in the right direction at least. There's a good chance some of them are drunk and that is why we are way off course right now, but eventually they will find the road and we'll get somewhere.

I just don't like the word unfair here. You have known for months the class is changing, along with all of the other classes. Thousands of people are going to choose different characters for the new expansion. I think you've gotten fair enough warning to decide if you want to pursue other options. You either enjoy your class and stick with it through changes or you reroll. It's been that way since day 1. I don't think a new expansion means that is now unfair.

---------- Post added 2010-09-21 at 08:25 PM ----------

I seriously /facepalm at the naive people that think rated BGs are gonna be different from arena in principles of competition, FotM comps, strategic/tactical planning etc.

Gameplay ofc will be different, but people are going to figure out all the optimal comps and strats after 2 weeks of season 9 and I'm ready to bet my left nut ret won't be included in those.

We bring next to nothing that other melees don't, cleanse is gone, we got tarded ramp up time and rng dependency. Yes, that all just screams uber efficient pvp class! Yessir!

And that is why I will never PVP seriously. Can I be the new owner of your left nut if ret is included?

[Sindy]

Is that pro sarcasm or did you give in to the inevitability of the retpocalypse like we have?

Pro sarcasm, and Retpocalypse is an incredibly awesome word btw. Thank you, I'll be using that.

[zealous]

One man's junk is another man's treasure. You might hate it, but many others have long awaited a change to the close your eyes and hit a button system. The new system is flawed but it is change in the right direction at least. There's a good chance some of them are drunk and that is why we are way off course right now, but eventually they will find the road and we'll get somewhere.

I just don't like the word unfair here. You have known for months the class is changing, along with all of the other classes. Thousands of people are going to choose different characters for the new expansion. I think you've gotten fair enough warning to decide if you want to pursue other options. You either enjoy your class and stick with it through changes or you reroll. It's been that way since day 1. I don't think a new expansion means that is now unfair.

---------- Post added 2010-09-21 at 08:25 PM ----------



And that is why I will never PVP seriously. Can I be the new owner of your left nut if ret is included?

So the rest of us who DO want to pvp should just stick it?
Wut u gonna do with 3 nuts? Or you missing one? ^^

You are contradicting yourself, leaning heavily on the argument of "to each his own" and questions of subjective opionion, you voice "a change in the right direction" as if it was a universal truth. I don't consider this the right direction same as many other paladins.

Bow down to our new god - the Random Number Generator!

Pro sarcasm, and Retpocalypse is an incredibly awesome word btw. Thank you, I'll be using that.

Just send me a percentage of all the profits u gain from that :P

[Deleted]

Ok OP I'll bite.

1) Your gear sucks for ret spec atm. Why? You have no mastery or haste, two stats that will definitly make your DPS less RNG and will boost your survibility and sustained DPS.

2) Your spec sucks. Why? You're missing some talent points, when you only have 41 to choose from missing 5 (I believe it's five) matters.

3) Most classes can't solo Chillmaw with anything under full T10. Rogues (I know mine did) couldn't solo it in full T9 unless I had potions and flasks and junk. Get use to feeling like a pure in terms of DPS vs Survibility. As far as being in T10, I have a resto shaman and never tried. My hunter is only in a 5.2k GS so I doubt he could do it, my pet can't hold aggro at all (even if I go BM and us MD) and I find I can only slightly pull it off as SV and that's using all sorts of CC and what not.

4) Numbers aren't done yet and scaling will change spells dramatically since ranks are going away. Retadins had almost no ramp up time for along time. Then you had to do 5 auto hits to ramp up, in pvp you didn't really have any, so it took you a few seconds to be at full damage, kinda like a rogue/warrior/druid/aff lock/spriest/SV Hunter. There are probably more classes but I don't know every spec/class. So now that you're brought inline with other classes you QQ?

Ever play against a retadin as another melee class? It's insane how much crap they need to do compared to a class that pushes 4 buttons and 1 CD button. My hunter has 32 shots/traps/utility (not including focus targets) to manage. Rets have 5 plus a few CD (focus macros included). I have a ret, got him to 1800 in 2v2 with an spriest in 2 weeks. Considering how easy it was to do it compared to my hunter or resto shaman I can't say I feel sorry for the class.

Oke you sir seem to miss a few facts .

1 How will haste boost his survival that much? A chance to be able to heal 2 times in a row for 5k is what we have now aswell and we str makes sure we hit harder at the moment. Also More haste instead of str means less AP ---> spelldps meaning lower healpower. Divine storm not healing that much doesn't help that much either. Judgements not healing. No sacred shield. Survival went down m8 haste or the new mastery won't fix that.

2. level 80 - > 85 is 5 levels. Seeing we get a talent point every 2 levels means it's not 5 point he is missing. Unless offcourse we get those 5 last talent points when we hit level 80. Just checked and yes it's 5 points. Still those 5 points aren't that much of a DPS increase and he is talking about something he does now and as you know you can leave some points out now and still do a lot of dps as it is.

3. He is tier 10 at the moment so what is you're point? And if you can't solo something with your hunter you're plain bad. Hunter is one of the best classes do 3 man quest with. DK's are just 2 much but a hunter isn't so far off.

4. Eh what are you saying? We need 5 auto attacks do be at max dps, but in pvp we don't need to hit 5 times in a short time to be at max dps? Hmm strange logic. Or do you mean it's fair we need to have a ramp up time off about 12 secs and be 1 one of the easiest classes to CC so our ramp up falls off?

5. Hunter and resto a melee class? I thought not so im wondering why you talk about them. And if you played with a shadow priest I'm sure that you pressed more than 5 buttons:

1. DS
2. CS
3. Judgement(3 different types most of the time it's JoJ but still)
4. Exo
5. Bubble
6. HoF or do you like being kited?
7. Cleanse or do you not care?
8. HoP or do you like seeing you ally get murdered by 2 rogue?
9. repentance
10. Stun
11. Cons(yeah not often but sometimes it is that extra bit of damage or uncloaking a stealther)
12. HoS
13. Blessings
14. Purify when fighting a shadow priest
15. arcane torrent(when a BE)
16. Wings(risky)
17. You're other shield that lowers damage taken by 50%
18. Sacred shield
19. FoL
20. Holy light(not always superb but can be life saving)

Now I allready listed like 20 skills for you. I didn't even mention aura's or seal switching. Or even made judgement 3 different buttons like you did with you're stings.

If you think that it's only 5 buttons than that shadow priest was gosu to have carry you to a 1800 rating.

[Swampmoose]

So the rest of us who DO want to pvp should just stick it?
Wut u gonna do with 3 nuts? Or you missing one? ^^

You are contradicting yourself, leaning heavily on the argument of "to each his own" and questions of subjective opionion, you voice "a change in the right direction" as if it was a universal truth. I don't consider this the right direction same as many other paladins.

Bow down to our new god - the Random Number Generator!



Just send me a percentage of all the profits u gain from that :P

PVP if you want to PVP, there will always be OP combination's which you will either be a part of or not a part of. If you choose to participate in such a flawed activity, go right ahead. You can either play a crappy combo to 1500 or you can reroll and get your ever-so prestigious "I played DK Holy Pally 1st season of Wrath with my eyes closed" Gladiator title and mount. Either way, it is far fetched to think PVP will ever be even, so I guess, yah Blizzard has said stick it.

I don't see how I am contradicting myself. The change IS in the right direction but it IS flawed as I stated, and that is my opinion, not a universal truth. They have moved on from 5 buttons, just hit them when they are off CD, to a new resource system and abilities that have potential. People complained about FCFS keyboard slapping for ages and welcome change, which is why I say many have long awaited something new. Yes it is highly RNG dependent which is one of the many flaws the new system has but the idea again has a lot of potential. You are looking at what is, and not what could be or in my terminology, you are looking at where we are currently standing and not in the direction we are heading.

A second resource to monitor will help separate the good from the bad and a lot of people like that, they just don't like that right now, the roll of the dice will have a greater impact than if you are any good or not.

Problem and my guess the reason we haven't seen any changes recently is, to eliminate RNG you have to increase Holy Power generation a great deal which means TV spam which means you have to then nerf TV which they said they want to be a big hitter soooooo, what do you do? Increasing HP without nerfing TV, logical thing would be to make you hit something ahead of TV, but in order for TV to be the big hitter, this other thing cannot cause damage....inquisition.

Make nearly everything proc Holy Power, make inquisition stackable (3 stacks?), make it modify TV damage as well, and make TV consume inquisition. HP is available frequently for whatever you feel necessary, you have to follow rotation, and TV still hits hard? Change the mastery to not consume Inquisition so you can go TV, build 3 hp real fast, TV now and then?

[Ronark]

I seriously /facepalm at the naive people that think rated BGs are gonna be different from arena in principles of competition, FotM comps, strategic/tactical planning etc.

Gameplay ofc will be different, but people are going to figure out all the optimal comps and strats after 2 weeks of season 9 and I'm ready to bet my left nut ret won't be included in those.

We bring next to nothing that other melees don't, cleanse is gone, we got tarded ramp up time and rng dependency. Yes, that all just screams uber efficient pvp class! Yessir!

You forgot Auto-Swing procs. We love Auto-swing procs in PvP.

[Requital]

One man's junk is another man's treasure. You might hate it, but many others have long awaited a change to the close your eyes and hit a button system. The new system is flawed but it is change in the right direction at least. There's a good chance some of them are drunk and that is why we are way off course right now, but eventually they will find the road and we'll get somewhere.

I just don't like the word unfair here. You have known for months the class is changing, along with all of the other classes. Thousands of people are going to choose different characters for the new expansion. I think you've gotten fair enough warning to decide if you want to pursue other options. You either enjoy your class and stick with it through changes or you reroll. It's been that way since day 1. I don't think a new expansion means that is now unfair.

---------- Post added 2010-09-21 at 08:25 PM ----------



And that is why I will never PVP seriously. Can I be the new owner of your left nut if ret is included?

Definitely have to argue with you on this, Just because we have known for months that it's changing means nothing because here we are still waiting for these so called numbers to be tuned. Until the numbers are tuned we don't really know how the class is going to perform. Just like you can't make a rotation when you have no idea what abilities will be strongest.

However someone said it best, Rated BG's will just be a larger Arena it will take a very short period of time to determine the bets classes to win and I don't think those will include Ret as a front choice but more so as that 3rd strong melee for the Rogue in 277 gear.

[mustangzs2]

Elem was having severe burst problems too I hear, FS+LB+ES+Fulmination+LB mastery proc = 30k+. And that's w/o lightning shield charges. With full 9 of em it's upwards of 45k. (Did they nerf that damn shit btw?)

Please don't post unless you know what you're talking about. With the rotation you just listed, FS+LvB+ES+Fulmination+mastery proc, you would do nowhere near 30k dmg. Fulmination would do a grand ZERO (0) damage, seeing as you have to cast lightning bolt or chain lightning (60% chance) to gain another charge of lightning shield. Mastery ATM is capped around 40%, so this rotation is also completely RNG related. Also, fulmination only crits 45k when you have nine stacks, clearcasting, fire totem down, and ele mastery up (for me hDFO procced), which is completely unobtainable in pvp period (even trying to get just 6 stacks is nearly impossible). Not to mention you have to be in nearly BiS PVE gear just to crit that high.

[zealous]

Please don't post unless you know what you're talking about. With the rotation you just listed, FS+LvB+ES+Fulmination+mastery proc, you would do nowhere near 30k dmg. Fulmination would do a grand ZERO (0) damage, seeing as you have to cast lightning bolt or chain lightning (60% chance) to gain another charge of lightning shield. Mastery ATM is capped around 40%, so this rotation is also completely RNG related. Also, fulmination only crits 45k when you have nine stacks, clearcasting, fire totem down, and ele mastery up (for me hDFO procced), which is completely unobtainable in pvp period (even trying to get just 6 stacks is nearly impossible). Not to mention you have to be in nearly BiS PVE gear just to crit that high.

That was not a rotation, I don't know why you would think it was. Maybe you should think for a moment before jumping into appalled enrage mode.

The 45k damage burst is a widely known thing by now which is rng dependent yes, and requires 9 stacks of LShield. What I listed was merely the skills that make up that 45k damage done in a short window of a couple of seconds. I am by no means a shaman expert so I may have made a mistake there somewhere, if so - my bad, but the exact skills were never the point. All I was doing was showing the situation of ideal burst a shaman could potentially create, while a paladin can't even if he rapes reality.

Elem shaman 45k burst in a 1 second window:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Spamming.../1/jRpza9CjfAM

@Swampmoose:

You were contradicting yourself by telling someone "one man's junk is another man's treasure" which basically means "what is crap for you could be considered good by someone else", the principle of that phrase is absolutely sound the other way around: "what you consider the right direction many people consider the wrong one". I myself don't like a secondary resource system based on combo points, CBs are the sole reason why I couldn't bring myself to play a rogue even though I tried multiple times and still have a 71 level char leveled through recruit a friend sitting in my char screen.

Even then, If it was implemented in a decent way I wouldn't moan as much, even considering that I like to moan and complain. They faced it all in the direction of RNG dependency, somehow equating luck to skill.

As to pvp, you are quite simply exaggerating and twisting the facts. You don't like it - your business, don't do it. But don't make it sound like it's utterly unplayable shit which boils down to a faceroll comp obliterating everything each season and taking up 99% of upper-middle and top arena rating slots.

Warriors, warlocks, mages, priests, rogues, druids, hunters have all been viable from arena launch. They have all had their ups and downs but they were never shut out of competitive arena pvp. Rets could perform on a mediocre level in certain comps in TBC, were incredibly devastating in 3.0 and turned into complete crap after the 3.1 nerf, barely viable as cleaving autoattackers and cleanse bots. The question is not team comp dominance, the question is class viability. Most classes have their niches no matter what the current FotM is, we are taken out of friendship, pity or misinformation. Or boredom if it's a team made "just for the hell of it".

You forgot Auto-Swing procs. We love Auto-swing procs in PvP.

Yes it seems we are modeled around pvping against combat dummies.

However someone said it best, Rated BG's will just be a larger Arena

It was me! /bounce

[mustangzs2]

That was not a rotation, I don't know why you would think it was. Maybe you should think for a moment before jumping into appalled enrage mode.

The 45k damage burst is a widely known thing by now which is rng dependent yes, and requires 9 stacks of LShield. What I listed was merely the skills that make up that 45k damage done in a short window of a couple of seconds. I am by no means a shaman expert so I may have made a mistake there somewhere, if so - my bad, but the exact skills were never the point. All I was doing was showing the situation of ideal burst a shaman could potentially create, while a paladin can't even if he rapes reality.

Elem shaman 45k burst in a 1 second window:

You do realize that you cannot get into arena with 9 stacks of lightning shield up already, and the ramp up time is extremely longer than the time it takes to lose a charge, right?
RNG burst is nonetheless RNG. The "1 second 45k burst" is complete bullshit because he didn't take into account the ramp up time of lightning shield x9 or casting flame shock.

[zealous]

You do realize that you cannot get into arena with 9 stacks of lightning shield up already, and the ramp up time is extremely longer than the time it takes to lose a charge, right?
RNG burst is nonetheless RNG. The "1 second 45k burst" is complete bullshit because he didn't take into account the ramp up time of lightning shield x9 or casting flame shock.

What did it have to do with arena at all? oO What did it have to do with actually any practical pvp? Or pvp at all? oO
I first posted that in response to a person who said most classes were having their burst nerfed, whereas for many of the ranged classes, burst was bugged/unbalanced into astronomical numbers. Warlocks, hunters and shamans being the prime examples.

It was an extreme example of what was theoretically possible as opposed to it being completely impossible for a ret paladin to reach even 1/2 of those numbers in that time window even if he/she created the perfect situation.

The "1 second 45k burst" was merely a point of theoretical interest to any people with at least half a brain, because as far as I know it was an unprecedented number within just one gcd, no one in the world claimed it to be a herald of an elem shaman-induced armageddon.

Seems like people don't even need a reason to flame and rage lately... just an excuse is enough.

[Swampmoose]

Definitely have to argue with you on this, Just because we have known for months that it's changing means nothing because here we are still waiting for these so called numbers to be tuned. Until the numbers are tuned we don't really know how the class is going to perform. Just like you can't make a rotation when you have no idea what abilities will be strongest.

However someone said it best, Rated BG's will just be a larger Arena it will take a very short period of time to determine the bets classes to win and I don't think those will include Ret as a front choice but more so as that 3rd strong melee for the Rogue in 277 gear.

I have not once talked about purely numbers. The person I quoted first referred to gameplay and then to a class revamp. To me that means he doesn't like the new abilities or system. We have known about them for months. The reply had nothing to do with numbers, just the style of play and massive overhaul.

---------- Post added 2010-09-21 at 11:43 PM ----------

@Swampmoose:

You were contradicting yourself by telling someone "one man's junk is another man's treasure" which basically means "what is crap for you could be considered good by someone else", the principle of that phrase is absolutely sound the other way around: "what you consider the right direction many people consider the wrong one".

You seem to be confused or something. The person said they didn't like the new gameplay and the character revamp as I just told Req. I said, one man's junk is another man's treasure. New Gameplay/Character Revamp to said poster = Junk. New Gameplay/Character Revamp to me = Treasure. Now don't look past this. There's nothing more to it. The fact that it is a flawed system and the numbers are not balanced does not change this. "One man's junk is another man's treasure" which basically means "what is crap for you could be considered good by someone else" is correct.

I myself don't like a secondary resource system based on combo points, CBs are the sole reason why I couldn't bring myself to play a rogue even though I tried multiple times and still have a 71 level char leveled through recruit a friend sitting in my char screen.

Another example. Junk to you. Treasure to me. I like it regardless of whether or not is needs correction. This is merely your opinion. You have yours, I have mine. This does not mean I am contradicting myself. I like it, it needs work. Right road, but off course (again my opinion, not everyone elses or yours).

Even then, If it was implemented in a decent way I wouldn't moan as much, even considering that I like to moan and complain. They faced it all in the direction of RNG dependency, somehow equating luck to skill.

I agreed multiple times that it was flawed because of high RNG dependency.

As to pvp, you are quite simply exaggerating and twisting the facts. You don't like it - your business, don't do it. But don't make it sound like it's utterly unplayable shit which boils down to a faceroll comp obliterating everything each season and taking up 99% of upper-middle and top arena rating slots.

RMP, Druid/Warrior, DK/Holy Pally, multiple seasons where OP comps controlled arenas. It's not exaggeration. Some classes controlled the arena scene for a long long while. The playing field has never been even enough to consider making much effort to succeed. You point this out well enough below. When I made the comment and these here, I was simply stating why I won't ever PVP.

Warriors, warlocks, mages, priests, rogues, druids, hunters have all been viable from arena launch. They have all had their ups and downs but they were never shut out of competitive arena pvp. Rets could perform on a mediocre level in certain comps in TBC, were incredibly devastating in 3.0 and turned into complete crap after the 3.1 nerf, barely viable as cleaving autoattackers and cleanse bots. The question is not team comp dominance, the question is class viability. Most classes have their niches no matter what the current FotM is, we are taken out of friendship, pity or misinformation. Or boredom if it's a team made "just for the hell of it".

It was me! /bounce

Correct, all of those classes have fared well enough from season to season and ret has rarely been a contender in any comp but it has had a moment here and there. Ret may or many not get the short end of the stick again for another expansion in PVP but I was stating that because of previous track records, I won't invest any time into it. That does not mean that it will or will not ever have a future as a contender in PVP and yes, changes will need to be made in the current state of the new system for a future in PVP to be possible.

[zealous]

I have not once talked about purely numbers. The person I quoted first referred to gameplay and then to a class revamp. To me that means he doesn't like the new abilities or system. We have known about them for months. The reply had nothing to do with numbers, just the style of play and massive overhaul.

---------- Post added 2010-09-21 at 11:43 PM ----------



You seem to be confused or something. The person said they didn't like the new gameplay and the character revamp. I said, one man's junk is another man's treasure. New Gameplay/Character Revamp to said poster = Junk. New Gameplay/Character Revamp to me = Treasure. Now don't look past this. There's nothing more to it. The fact that it is a flawed system does not change this.



Another example. Junk to you. Treasure to me. I like it regardless of whether or not is needs correction. This is merely your opinion. You have yours, I have mine. This does not mean I am contradicting myself. I like it, it needs work. Right road, but off course (again my opinion, not everyone elses or yours).




I agreed multiple times that it was flawed because of high RNG dependency.



RMP, Druid/Warrior, DK/Holy Pally, multiple seasons where OP comps controlled arenas. It's not exaggeration. Some classes controlled the arena scene for a long long while. The playing field has never been even enough to consider making much effort to succeed. You point this out well enough below. When I made the comment and these here, I was simply stating why I won't ever PVP.



Correct, all of those classes have fared well enough from season to season and ret has rarely been a contender in any comp but it has had a moment here and there. Ret may or many not get the short end of the stick again for another expansion in PVP but I was stating that because of previous track records, I won't invest any time into it. That does not mean that it will or will not ever have a future as a contender in PVP and yes, changes will need to be made in the current state of the new system for a future in PVP to be possible.

You see it as merely flaws in a generally good direction. I see it as part of the design and part of the direction.

"More complex" is not a direction in my eyes, especially considering that the "complex" part is very much arguable. Once you grasp the basics I don't believe it will be any harder, and once the addons are updated/designed to assist with it all, it won't be different at all in skill level except the tunnel vision induced by starting at your screen for procs like a zombie staring at raw meat.

If the design was not achieved, the "direction" does not exist, merely an unrealized intention which, let's face it, matters little. All you are left with is a system that isn't any harder, just impairs your ability to react to the environment because you are watching a specific area of the screen for your proc animation.

As to pvp - I never said the playing field was even. Only a child or a person with no knowledge of arena history would say that. My point was that most classes have had their time in the spotlight of FotM or generally successful comps and even if they didn't, they enjoyed moderate viability, whereas the ret paladin has been under the proverbial rock, barely ever making it into high ratings.
I'm not asking for the ability to always be viable as ret in top ratings, but is being viable in them at least a season or two and decent in the rest of the seasons too much to ask? I'm not even aiming for glad or smth. Just don't want to be roflstomped into the dust by other people simply because of class choice.

And please don't make me link teams that aren't "RMP, Druid/Warrior, DK/Holy Pally" from the armory that are above 2k or even 2,2k rating. Because I have seen them, they exist and I will link them.

So even if it turns out that I myself don't have the skill to get my decent-in-competitive-pvp (all I'm asking for) class into 2k+ ratings, I would still enjoy the thought that it's generally possible.

[zealous]

I took him down first time, but it was certainly tougher than on live. I chose seal of insight and used virtually all my holy power for word of glory, which healed ~30-40% of my health at 3HP. It was quite messy and I had to kite the adds around to avoid taking too much damage from the bombs, but I did not need bubble nor did I remember to use any other cooldowns (d'oh).

I think that's how I pretty much always did him on live up to t9.5 gear level (think I stopped doing the daily when ICC came out). Kiting the adds from the bombs I mean. Frost res aura + SS + JoL + AoW took care of my health though w/o sacrificing any significant damage output. Had to employ more extreme measures only if I got crit by her a few times in a row.
Prolly took me much less time considering how much damage you had to sacrifice for WoG though.

NEVER using our "finisher" when soloing sounds like good design. /facepalm