Hybird tax defined by GC

[Arteous]

first off let me quote this from the offical warrior forum sticky: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...77330431&sid=1

What is a hybrid tax? Why is there a hybrid tax?

I'm going to sticky this since it gets brought up more than almost any other topic.

We only recognize two types of classes for PvE purposes:

Can respec to fulfill a different role = hybrid.
Cannot respec to fulfill a different role = pure.

The roles are tank, healing and damage.

In our design, having two healing trees (priest) or half a tanking tree (druid) or three dps trees (DK) does not put these classes in different categories of hybridness. A hybrid is a hybrid.

It's the roles that your class lets you do that is important, not how those roles are organized into talent trees. The paladin is one way to organize the trees (a tanking tree, healing tree and melee dps tree) but not the only way. However, there is a reason we don't do this for every class -- it would be boring.

In our design, the pure dps classes (hunter, mage, warlock and rogue) should do slightly higher dps than hybrid damage-dealers all things being equal. All things are rarely equal. Player skill, gear, raid comp, latency, random luck and most importantly the specifics of the encounter will often favor one class, spec or player over another.

The reason we want pures to so slightly higher damage is that pures can only fulfill one role. If your guild or raid has no more need for damage-dealers, there is no way for these classes to raid with you. By contrast, the six other classes always have the option to respec for another role either temporarily or for the long haul.

The Blizzard definition of hybrid in this context has nothing to do with whether you can perform multiple roles within a single fight or even within a single raid. It has more to do with the potential for your class to ever fulfill more than one role.

Likewise, the Blizzard definition of hybrid in this context has nothing to do with the power of certain buffs or class synergy. We want all classes to bring useful tools to the raid.

Just because you’re not interested in doing anything other than damage does not qualify your class as a pure as long as the option to change roles is there. For the pure classes the only option is to reroll. We think the pure classes would start to disappear over time, at least from high-end raiding, if there was no advantage for being a pure. The hybrid advantage is flexibility.

There is not a “5% rule” that says pures should be 5% higher than hybrids in every circumstance. Again, most of the time other factors such as the encounter specifics will have a greater effect. The “5% rule” was either something a player suggested that stuck or something we threw out at some point as an example. It isn’t a hard and fast rule. We aren’t going to provide a hard and fast rule because players would then attempt to invoke that rule every time they thought their damage was too low instead of exploring other ways to improve their character’s performance.

This philosophy largely evolved in Wrath of the Lich King and is the design we plan on carrying forward to Cataclysm. In vanilla WoW, every class typically had one role. In BC, we tried to promote other roles for some classes, but we still didn’t make everyone play by the same rules. Warriors, and I hate to pick on them, were intended to be the best tank while also deliver dps that we would now label as competitive with rogues. By contrast, druids, paladins, priests and shaman were intended to be competitive healers, but have dramatically lower dps than pures and warriors. Likewise, druids, paladins, priests and shaman brought many unique and powerful buffs that were intended to compensate for their low dps. We spread these buffs out to a much greater degree in Lich King, and plan on refining that implementation for Cataclysm.

TLDR:

Hybrid = can respec to fulfill a different role (damage, tanking, or healing).
Hybrid != can fill multiple roles at the same time.
Hybrid != has awesome, amazing buffs or utility.
Hybrid != pure. Beyond that, there are no shades of gray among hybrids.


In general, we ask that players focus their feedback more on class mechanics and what is fun or not fun about the classes and not simply on “My dps is too low so you must buff me.”

looking back at this now i think blizzard needs to rethink this tax or fix how they are applying it.

Priests have 2 healing specs and 1 damage spec so they are NOT a hybird as the stated guideline by Ghost Crawler.
Shaman have 2 damage specs and 1 healing spec so they SHOULD NOT be a hybird as stated guideline by Ghost Crawler.
Warriors have 2 damage specs and 1 tanking spec so they SHOULD NOT be a hybird as stated guideline by ghostcrawler.
(double standard much?)

Druids as stated above are not hybirds even tho they have 1/2 a tanking tree YET that ferral tree is good at dps and have a 2nd dps spec.

So warriors are hybirds. Yet are not allowed to do as good dps (future cause we all know how that worked out after that was posted) as the ferral since he's "not a hybird". So why should a ferral tank as well as a warrior if he's not a hybird?

as for the

Hybrid = can respec to fulfill a different role (damage, tanking, or healing).
Hybrid != can fill multiple roles at the same time.
Hybrid != has awesome, amazing buffs or utility.
Hybrid != pure. Beyond that, there are no shades of gray among hybrids.

Considering changes in cata beta and ptr line 2. really irritates me. really a hybird can do both things at the same time? (at same time would mean not respecing from dps to tank for a warrior) so i should be able to mid fight slap on a sword and board and say tank proffesor putricide hardmode or lichking hardmode without being instagibbed. Wiping and respeccing and putting on an entirely different set of armor and not doing dps is not at the same time.

third line. Every class brings same buffs other classes do. infact a few debuffs were also now shared. There is no single one buff/utility one class brings that no other class can bring. Therefore either everyone or no one is a hybird. and if you can find that one buff/utility please see the whole glaring spec from line 1.


Your though about how this double standard is applied to warriors?

mine as stated above. Should not be a hybird and taxed for it. make us gods at tanking if they are going to kick the class in the nuts when it comes to dps or make our dps potential just as good as everyone easle's. Same should apply to other classes .. shaman for example .. 2 dps specs but only 1 healing tree (granted they might be able to pinch heal but not a whole fight and no way in hell would be able to say solo heal a main tank on a heroic fight in icc25 as ele/enhance.

[Kama]

Can respec to fulfill a different role = hybrid.
Cannot respec to fulfill a different role = pure.

I am not following anything you are saying about is or not a hybrid, this seems kind of simple to follow if you just read those 2 lines
try to que for a random, if u can select more than one role, YOU ARE HYBRID

[shokter]

first off let me quote this from the offical warrior forum sticky: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...77330431&sid=1



looking back at this now i think blizzard needs to rethink this tax or fix how they are applying it.

Priests have 2 healing specs and 1 damage spec so they are NOT a hybird as the stated guideline by Ghost Crawler.
Shaman have 2 damage specs and 1 healing spec so they SHOULD NOT be a hybird as stated guideline by Ghost Crawler.
Warriors have 2 damage specs and 1 tanking spec so they SHOULD NOT be a hybird as stated guideline by ghostcrawler.
(double standard much?)

It does not take a careful read to tell you that all the classes you highlighted above DO, in fact, fit GC's description of hybrid. He said a hybrid is any class that can fill more than 1 role. All those classes fill more than 1 role therefore fit GC's definition of hybrid.

The problem with thy hybrid tax as I see it is that it is not evenly applied to all the hyrbid dps classes...but honestly I don't think it's so bad as to be broken.

Edit: also I think you are confused about what != means (I was too for bit)...he means it to be "not equal" or =/=

[kivipää]

All I can say is that wow, you utterly fail at reading comprehension.

Let me translate for you;

Hybrid can respec to fulfill a different role (damage, tanking, or healing).
Hybrid can not fill multiple roles at the same time.
Hybrid does not necessarily have awesome, amazing buffs or utility.
Hybrid is not a pure. Beyond that, there are no shades of gray among hybrids.

[shocktopuslol]

most hybrid classes have DPS that is very competitive with other classes.
they should just rename hybrid tax shaman tax since shamans are the only ones who actually pay it

[Arteous]

Can respec to fulfill a different role = hybrid.
Cannot respec to fulfill a different role = pure.

I am not following anything you are saying about is or not a hybrid, this seems kind of simple to follow if you just read those 2 lines
try to que for a random, if u can select more than one role, YOU ARE HYBRID

Then in that post he states that Druids and Preists are not hybirds even tho they can do just that.

[shags the penguin]

My dps sucks because I am a hybrid.
The actual design differences are tiny, so tiny in fact the very large majority of players could easily find the same amount of damage by playing there own class better.


Anyway If you can do anything else apart from dps then you are a hybrid.

The hybrid tax only applies to dps role because the other 5 healers and 4 tanks are balanced together in the groups. (think Op said something about that)

Actually I keep reading it and I still don't understand your point. Might be lack of sleep so will come back to it.

[DrNemesis]

Then in that post he states that Druids and Preists are not hybirds even tho they can do just that.

Show me where he states that.

[Hakto]

Then in that post he states that Druids and Preists are not hybirds even tho they can do just that.

In our design, having two healing trees (priest) or half a tanking tree (druid) or three dps trees (DK) does not put these classes in different categories of hybridness. A hybrid is a hybrid. He is explicitly stating they are hybrids.

[kivipää]

Then in that post he states that Druids and Preists are not hybirds even tho they can do just that.

i assume you mean this line; In our design, having two healing trees (priest) or half a tanking tree (druid) or three dps trees (DK) does not put these classes in different categories of hybridness. A hybrid is a hybrid.

As you have comprehension problems, let me translate it for you.

No matter how many talent trees you have for a specific role, if you have talent trees to fullfill more than one role, you are a hybrid. All hybrids are equally hybrid no matter how many role options they have or how their talent trees are spread amongst these options.

The line is actually saying the classes mentioned ARE hybrids, and none of them is any more or less hybrid than another.

[Demox]

Then in that post he states that Druids and Preists are not hybirds even tho they can do just that.

In our design, having two healing trees (priest) or half a tanking tree (druid) or three dps trees (DK) does not put these classes in different categories of hybridness. A hybrid is a hybrid.

He's saying that priests having two healing specs and druids having half a talent tree for tanking does not make them anymore or less of a hybrid. They are both considered one type of hybrid and fall under the tax. Like others have said, brush up on your reading comprehension.

[Arteous]

ok .. here is the line since everyone seems to just gloss over it and ignore it..

In our design, having two healing trees (priest) or half a tanking tree (druid) or three dps trees (DK) does not put these classes in different categories of hybridness. A hybrid is a hybrid.

So why is specifically a preist and druid allowed NOT to be hybirds yet they fill all the requisites of being a hybird class? And Dk's are being made specifically to have 1 tanking tree JUST LIKE WARRIORS. Yet they are not hybirds.

[shokter]

No he doesn't state that. I suggest you take a 2nd or 3rd look at GC's post...you are misreading it or maybe reading into it too much. He states clearly which classes are pure and which hybrid...and clearly defines both terms.

---------- Post added 2010-09-19 at 12:52 AM ----------

ok .. here is the line since everyone seems to just gloss over it and ignore it..


So why is specifically a preist and druid allowed NOT to be hybirds yet they fill all the requisites of being a hybird class? And Dk's are being made specifically to have 1 tanking tree JUST LIKE WARRIORS. Yet they are not hybirds.

He just means they aren't different sorts of hybrids just because they don't follow the paladin model of having each tree equal one role or the priest/shaman/warrior model of only filling 2 roles. He means just what he says....namely "a hybrid is a hybrid".

[Ledbetterus]

ok .. here is the line since everyone seems to just gloss over it and ignore it..


So why is specifically a preist and druid allowed NOT to be hybirds yet they fill all the requisites of being a hybird class? And Dk's are being made specifically to have 1 tanking tree JUST LIKE WARRIORS. Yet they are not hybirds.

You aren't reading the quote right. GC is saying that just because a Priest/Warrior/DK can only be two roles, doesn't mean they are any less of a hybrid class than a Druid, who can play three (four sort of) roles.

[Tablemaker]

So why is specifically a preist and druid allowed NOT to be hybirds yet they fill all the requisites of being a hybird class?

Can you not read? Are the words being used to express his point too big?

What he is saying, is because a Priest has two healing trees and a Death Knight has 3 DPS specs, they are still hybrids. It does not put them in a special hybrid category. A hybrid is a hybrid.

Hybrid = can respec to fulfill a different role (damage, tanking, or healing).

I am also going to assume "or" is a majorly big and confusing word for you. When he uses OR it means a Hybrid can be any combination of the three. Heal and Tank(Druid), Heal and Damage(Priest) and Damage and Tank (Death Knight). Now, if he used the word "and" in the statement, it would mean that a hybrid would have to fill all three roles. However, he never, so a Hybrid is a class that can fill at the very least two different roles.

[Cyclone Duke]

This is how GC considers a class to be a hybrid:

"Can your class do anything apart from deal damage?"

Yes, I can re-spec to do something other than damage (tank or heal) = you are a hybrid.

No, I cannot re-spec to do something other than damage. No matter what my talents are, I am a DPS with no option to heal or tank. = you are a pure

[Creedo]

ok .. here is the line since everyone seems to just gloss over it and ignore it..


So why is specifically a preist and druid allowed NOT to be hybirds yet they fill all the requisites of being a hybird class? And Dk's are being made specifically to have 1 tanking tree JUST LIKE WARRIORS. Yet they are not hybirds.

Dude what don't you understand??? GC specifically states that THEY ARE Hybrids. You either need to FINISH school, GO BACK to school, or now ENROLL in school as you DO NOT have comprehension of any type. Also, this makes YOU a hybrid.

[Deleted]

ok .. here is the line since everyone seems to just gloss over it and ignore it..


So why is specifically a preist and druid allowed NOT to be hybirds yet they fill all the requisites of being a hybird class? And Dk's are being made specifically to have 1 tanking tree JUST LIKE WARRIORS. Yet they are not hybirds.

Seriously go back to school and learn to read. He says, that priests and druids ARE hybrids. He then says that fulfilling 3 roles instead of 2 roles doesnt mean their a different TYPE of hybrid, because a HYBRID IS A HYBRID.

[Niter]

It is fairly simple: if your class has only DPS specs (like Mage, Warlock, Rogue, Hunter...), it is a PURE CLASS.

If you can have other specs for other roles, then you are a hybrid.

He says that a "hybrid is a hybrid" because it does not matter if a hybrid class has 2 roles or 3. All hybrids will be the same as far as the "hybrid tax" is concerned. No categories of hybridism whatsoever.

If the OP does not understand that, it is because he does not want to or does not speak English.

[Hellevad]

Then in that post he states that Druids and Preists are not hybirds even tho they can do just that.

Let's see...
"In our design, having two healing trees (priest) or half a tanking tree (druid) or three dps trees (DK) does not put these classes in different categories of hybridness. A hybrid is a hybrid."
Nope, he doesn't - what he says is that they are not DIFFERENT types of hybrids. They are hybrids - nothing more nothing less.

What he is getting at is that Blizzard don't count beyond 2 - they don't care if you can do 2 or 3 different jobs - the only thing that matters is that you can do more than one.

They also don't care if you can effectively do different things in the same fights or you need to respec and swap gear to switch roles. (A shadowpriest (or Ele shaman or boomkin) can toss out some fairly strong heals should the need arise and the healers get torn apart, while a feral druid (or Enh shaman) can't really switch to sustained healing, as they need to both respec and swap gear to heal effectively).

See the difference? By Blizzards reckoning there are only two categories here - pures (those that can ONLY DPS, no tanking, no healing, just deal out the pain - nothing else) and hybrids (everyone else). They don't care if it's a "tanking hybrid" (Warriors and DK:s) or "healing hybrids" (Priests and shamen) or "swiss army knives" (Druids and paladins).