Why do people forget heroics were hard back in the day?

[Ryquis]

There is so much QQ of recent, particularly with the rumors flying about that the Cataclysm dungeons are receiving some nerfs, and with it comes the constant accusing finger pointing to the ease of WOTLK heroic dungeons. Does no one remember when they actually used to be hard?
We are talking starting to gear in, and with gear from naxx, you and your buds go into old temple, and the tank gets one shotted cause you didn't interrupt the 2 casters simultaneously in the same trash pack, or shackle.
You actually had to move out of Loken's lightning nova because it would one shot the entire party (HoL was a pug killer for a solid half a year)
Where HoS's council had your last dps running around frantically trying to stay alive for those last 15 seconds to clear the event
Where the tank actually had to dodge Anub's pound, where people had to actually dps each other out of Keleseth's frost tomb (or whoever)

Long story short, what were once mechanics that would keep the low level to mediocre player entertained and challenged, have changed to "Heal through it, burn it down before X Y and Z, wtf is a cc?". In my eyes, this isn't an issue with how the heroics were designed, but rather an issue with how Blizz has chosen to grant more incentive to the casual player via an IV drip of purplez. Heroic dungeons can't keep that "heroicy" fun factor when you release what is essentially 6 or 7 tiers of gear in an expansion, without being completely impossible to accomplish for entry level 80s. Granted, the pulls could use more crowd control stress and less AoE, but to just gloss over what was once a fun challenge like we were farming it right off the bat is a little ignorant.

[Magnett]

Because crying about a whole expansion instead of crying about being overgeared makes you sound smarter.

Edit: also yeah, heroics were farmed a LOT more in WotLK than in TBC. It's normal for people to be sick of them. I haven't been in one in about four months myself, I need heirlooms for a Cata alt, and I still can't bring myself to farming the 20ish emblems I need.

[Kagdar]

Because we farm these so often, that 300 runs earlier we were still overgearing them.

[Deleted]

Those were nothing compared to TK only OC but that was mostly anoying drake fights

[Hendrixstorm]

There is so much QQ of recent, particularly with the rumors flying about that the Cataclysm dungeons are receiving some nerfs, and with it comes the constant accusing finger pointing to the ease of WOTLK heroic dungeons. Does no one remember when they actually used to be hard?
We are talking starting to gear in, and with gear from naxx, you and your buds go into old temple, and the tank gets one shotted cause you didn't interrupt the 2 casters simultaneously in the same trash pack, or shackle.
You actually had to move out of Loken's lightning nova because it would one shot the entire party (HoL was a pug killer for a solid half a year)
Where HoS's council had your last dps running around frantically trying to stay alive for those last 15 seconds to clear the event
Where the tank actually had to dodge Anub's pound, where people had to actually dps each other out of Keleseth's frost tomb (or whoever)

Long story short, what were once mechanics that would keep the low level to mediocre player entertained and challenged, have changed to "Heal through it, burn it down before X Y and Z, wtf is a cc?". In my eyes, this isn't an issue with how the heroics were designed, but rather an issue with how Blizz has chosen to grant more incentive to the casual player via an IV drip of purplez. Heroic dungeons can't keep that "heroicy" fun factor when you release what is essentially 6 or 7 tiers of gear in an expansion, without being completely impossible to accomplish for entry level 80s. Granted, the pulls could use more crowd control stress and less AoE, but to just gloss over what was once a fun challenge like we were farming it right off the bat is a little ignorant.

You never had to move out of Loken's nova, people were healing through it with ease in 3.0. The HoS even was never hard, and if your dps were scrambling it would have to be becuase the tank was dead, get out of the giant laser once every 20 seconds does not make an event hard. The tank never had to move from pound, it never at any point one shotted a tank and even at that gear you had more than enough mana income to heal him back up. People ignored Kele's tomb all the time, especially on healers and just continued to nuke the boss, all of this remains true in 3.0. WOTLK heroics were NEVER hard, and people are complaining now because paladins are doing heroics by themselves and dps are tanking ICC heroics, and how fast the instance is done determines how many rooms you can pull at once. I don't see how in any way you could think it's not the base design of the instance. The mobs hit for 2k on tanks who back then had over 30k, the boss damage is non-existant, no mobs do anything of ANY particular danger, ANY boss mechanic can be healed through. We WERE farming it off the back, in pugs who were steamrolling it.

[lifesavers]

because they didn't actually play back in the day.

[Samin]

Hey my constant nagging about how people who remember exactly how awesome vanilla was forget how difficult some heroics were at the start seem to have an effect. Sadly even blizzard now seems to agree now that wotlk always was easy. (And compared to cata it probably was easier, but not a lot)

The mobs hit for 2k on tanks who back then had over 30k

Yeah okay you just have proven that you're one of those guys who don't have a clue (or memory). 30k HP was basically what 5.5k GS is now. With the exception that you didn't get the gear as easy. You only got 2 set pieces from heroic dungeons and some offset pieces and they all were almost as expansive as frost stuff is now, not as cheap as the triumph stuff.

[Deleted]

ahh loved thoose days Loken was badass " Dont run to far then u die but run so far u dont get hitted!" ahh

[Scimitar]

I can't speak for all QQing people, but I hate wotlk heroics because despite the fact that I'm outgearing them and that that I don't need any loot, I'm forced by the effin Dungeon tool to revisit them. Make the daily dungeon reward justice points(Triumph) instead of Valor points(Frost) and I don't mind leaving behind heroic after t11 or t12.

That being said, having to revisit old heroics on a daily basis while they would actually be challenging would suck even more. So leave dungeons as thay are (except for the bringing back CC part, that's nice) and just get rif of the cursed Daily Dungeon Reward.

[Zortorai90]

because they didn't actually play back in the day.

Newfa-- *gunshots*

[Ryquis]

So Hendrix, I take it you never ran when the best gear you could get was ilvl 213. If you wore cloth, Loken annihilated you (and good luck healing through it if you were a priest or paladin at the time) if not immediately, shortly after because you were taking a heavy DoT hit, and where 3k+ dps was a big deal, unless you were a pre volley nerf hunter, you're "we could zerg everything all the time" argument is just a fallacy, not to mention entry level tanks were JUST hitting 30k hp in the gear that was around pre raid. Strap yourself up in some <ilvl200 gear form normal dungeons and try your hand, and get back to me when you actually experienced the content the way it was 2 weeks into wrath like everyone else.

[Christan]

heroics were not hard in BC, yes they were all challenging at the appropriate gear level,
but after a few tiers they were faceroll.

and yeah people had to get out off lokens nova 3.0, depending on the healing class used
a holy paladin could not heal that fight in quest \ dungeon gear mixtures.

the only heroics that were partially challenging was the pvp gimmick fight in hMGT, and Arcatraz,
but honestly it only became hard if people were idiots
(not standing on tanks to split meteor damage)

as far as the "not standing in lasers doesn't count as a hard fight"
everything BC was that way, if people did their jobs, you really wouldn't have to worry about wiping.

and if people were being stupid \ silly, you could even wipe in h slave pens (not killing mc add - stingray that fears and ppl pulling adds because of that)

but BC heroics were hard? rofl never! except arcatraz at early gear levels...that was a nightmare.
SH was challenging, but even at early gear levels it wasn't hard, the timed run made people have silly mistakes trying to rush it is all.

[Overtroll]

It's dumb that content that requires blue gear rewards the best pve gear before the last raid.

Except that ,the only heroic that was remotely close to being hard was halls of lightning(that has also been meganerfed some months after release).The rest were cakewalks.

[drulz]

You never had to move out of Loken's nova, people were healing through it with ease in 3.0. The HoS even was never hard, and if your dps were scrambling it would have to be becuase the tank was dead, get out of the giant laser once every 20 seconds does not make an event hard. The tank never had to move from pound, it never at any point one shotted a tank and even at that gear you had more than enough mana income to heal him back up. People ignored Kele's tomb all the time, especially on healers and just continued to nuke the boss, all of this remains true in 3.0. WOTLK heroics were NEVER hard, and people are complaining now because paladins are doing heroics by themselves and dps are tanking ICC heroics, and how fast the instance is done determines how many rooms you can pull at once. I don't see how in any way you could think it's not the base design of the instance. The mobs hit for 2k on tanks who back then had over 30k, the boss damage is non-existant, no mobs do anything of ANY particular danger, ANY boss mechanic can be healed through. We WERE farming it off the back, in pugs who were steamrolling it.

Heroic: Halls of Lightning
Defeat the Halls of Lightning bosses on Heroic Difficulty.
05-02-2009

2nd and 3rd armory links don't work.

Anyway, the point is that on the one character that could be viewed you hadn't completed Halls of Lightning until long after people in Ulduar gear far out geared it.


Heroic: Halls of Stone
Defeat the boss encounters in the Halls of Stone on Heroic Difficulty.
04-25-2009

Once again, long after Ulduar had been out, thus easily out gearing it.


Heroic: Azjol-Nerub
Defeat the Azjol-Nerub bosses on Heroic Difficulty.
04-25-2009


Heroic: Utgarde Keep
Defeat the Utgarde Keep bosses on Heroic Difficulty.
04-25-2009

Now I'll be the first to say that its easily possible that you had completed these heroics on a different character before everyone was wearing full Ulduar gear but the one armory link that works says otherwise.

[Ryquis]

Drulz officially gets Ryquis homeboy status for validating my speculations, but alas, you don't get grandfathered in for the achievement when it hits live in 2013 :-(. On a different note, lol I totally forgot about Occulus, before they scaled with gear, people just sat there and died, ty for the reminder.

@Christan - I am well aware that any competent player can clear anything with relative ease nowadays. When I throw together my personal friend heroics and ten mans in cataclysm, I don't expect to have any of the issues that will no doubt be the subject of qq in cataclysm. What I am suggesting is that there used to be a level of play that was moderately challenging compared to the state of the game nowadays, and yet we attribute the entirety of WOTLK to the gutters like we spent the entire expansion spamming our AoE button (we only spent 7/8s max!). If you will note, in my original post, I noted that these encounters thoroughly challenged the low end of the WoW skill community, but it was still enough for good players to enjoy.

[Christan]

It's dumb that content that requires blue gear rewards the best pve gear before the last raid.

Except that ,the only heroic that was remotely close to being hard was halls of lightning(that has also been meganerfed some months after release).The rest were cakewalks.

actually, Occulus was challenging, at the start of the expansion mounted fights being so NEW, not to mention all the casters that ignored all the defense of your tank(ever try dodging a spell?)
and this was with 30k hp tanks after buffs.

DTK first boss that did consume, omg ouch, dps was a lot lower back in the day, if he got up to 15 stacks of his buff or so he could 1 shot people with less than 20k hp with his aoe.

king dred also, mangling \ grevious bite, and the other one, on tanks that didnt have as much avoidance, they would almost always hit, then the bleed from the adds he spawns would get buffed by mangle, this was a time when tanks got nuked during the fear, a group without fearward \ war tank \ shama, were kind of screwed, that fight was hard.

remember when people actually had to run OUT of the frost bombs from mage lord orum? and the aoe he does when he teleports (2-4 times depending on dps) actually would kill people with 20k hp, unless they were topped off, but the frost bomb stacks pretty much prevented that, 3 ppl get hit by it, one would die - triage

healers going OOM on the gauntlet for Skadi in UP, people throwing harpoons at the wrong time, them despawning, etc. ohh and if you got hit by the frost breath you would die.

i could go on but this post is already TL-DR

in short: yes they were challenging, and no, it was not just loken, he is just the best example.



just to show -

heroic halls of lightning 12 - 30 - 2008
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-a...n=Steel+Legion

[ELYPOP]

People complain because they are done more, and now, a lot overgear them.


Back in my day, we had to find groups on Trade/LFG Channel. *Waves cane.*

[Magnett]

The mobs hit for 2k on tanks who back then had over 30k

hahaha, oh wow

You'd need epics to have 30k with Last Stand up, sonny.

[Raugnaut]

Just did Direbrew. I remember last year, the fight would take about 2 minutes on average, with people being tossed left, right, center, mobs ganging up on the heals, dps taking enough damage to warrent more then a WG here and there. Did it this morning. Burned through the boss in 16 secs flat.
If people want to blame this gear inflation on anything, blame it on the advent of ToC and its heroic modes. The Ilvl difference between the highest lvl gear in Wotlk, 284, and starter heroics, 200, is larger then the difference between BT 135 and Naxx 200, or even MC 65 and Kara 115. Essentially, the gear in WotLK raiding grew 10 levels, where most of the content did NOT.

So, the reasons heroics are so mind-numbingly easy now are because people are way outgearing the content beyond what blizzard ever expected when they released it. In BC, people in BT gear still blew by BC heroics, but, very very few people had the gear from BT. In comparision, everyone and thier monkeys are decked out in what, back then, was BT/Hyjal quality gear.

This will NOT change in Cata. Heroics will be hard at first, but, after 3 tiers are released and easily available to the casual gamer, Cata heroics will be a mind-numbing AoE fest once again. Although, with the removal of the difference of 10/25 gear lvl, groups may wipe a few more times on heroic trash in the 3rd tier of content-gear, depending on how lucky they are with AoEing the tank eating mobs down quickly.

[smoomin]

Oh god people actually think wotlk heroics were hard at first? hahaha oh my. either your groups were awful or you just have no idea what hard content is.