Cata Heroics and DPS accoutability

[Gestopft]

After watching some of the videos of Cata heroics, I've noticed what I think may be a promising new trend for five mans. Making DPS more accountable for the success of an encounter. This is already in place in most raid encounters via stacking debuffs/enrage timers/etc, but it is rare to find it in a five man. In Wrath five mans, there are VERY few places where damage actually matters (not including achievements) and the few places are mostly patched in. Black Knight and Falric require dps to kill the boss before the healer gets overwhelmed (but are also dependent on healer skill) and the gauntlet in HoR requires good DPS to kill the mobs before the LK eats your face (and a good tank to pick up/position/hold the mobs as they come in).

I've seen from watching videos a few instances in the new Cata dungeons where the dps are really critical in encounter sucess, such as Corborus (the first boss of Stonecore) who has a crystal spray that spawns adds which have to be AoE'd down very quickly (watch TotalBiscuit's video) and the first boss of BRC where you have to (collectively) break the chains. If the dps fail at these, its a wipe. Period. Granted, many encounters won't be that demanding, but I think this is a good new trend for encounter design. However, the tank side of me also dislikes the feeling of losing control over the success of a run/encounter.

What do you think of this trend (if it indeed is a trend) in encounter design? Are you glad that (some) 5-man encounters are finally making everybody accountable? Are you bugged that this will increase your chance to wipe if you get a less-than-competent player in your group?

[Nudi]

I like it.. Imo, it is best if each of the roles tank, healer and dps really has moments where they have to be completely on top of their game - and if they ain't, well, wipe.

[brakke]

sounds promissing, we can find out soon enough

[Sills]

I agree. Every member of a group needs to be accountable for what they can bring to the table. If you cant carry your weight then you wipe and try again.

[Citan_Elune]

When i see terrible dps (some people full T10 with 3k dps) i'm fearing that lfg won't be an idea for the first weeks of cata in heroic instances...

[Deleted]

I hope that there will be some "discount" on performance regarding the LFG.
otherwise it will make some dungeon , instant break once u get there.
cause pps know that it's gonna be wipe feast.
I know that on some Wolk hc dungeons I had the best dmg as tank cause the lfg system got me with pps on greens/blue and most didn't know what they are doing or care..
maybe we go back to the days of BC where u went hc with guildies / friends only.

[cornymorty]

Anyone remember back before BC where you were accountable for your role?

I really hope this stays, I like playing a game with a bit of a challenge

[Herecius]

I'm definitely only going to venture into dungeons with at least two other trusted guildmates, for the first tier of Cataclysm or so. It's not that I feel like I'll personally have trouble, I just don't trust the LFG to provide competent players! This makes me happy.

[Zoma]

I think I'm going to limit my Heroics to guild runs until 4.1

[Higgi]

This isn't really new. The fact that almost everyone is overgeared for heroics lets you simply forget about it. Run a few heroics with 3 fresh 80 DPS and you will rediscover dps-critical encounters in todays instances.

[Gestopft]

This isn't really new. The fact that almost everyone is overgeared for heroics lets you simply forget about it. Run a few heroics with 3 fresh 80 DPS and you will rediscover dps-critical encounters in todays instances.

Such as what? Not including the examples I stated in my OP. The only other ones I can think of are Jegoda and Taldaram in OK, and those aren't guaranteed wipes by any stretch. Maybe you could count the Brann event in HoS too. But for anything else, the "function" of dps is to make it go faster.

[Maerad]

Such as what? Not including the examples I stated in my OP. The only other ones I can think of are Jegoda and Taldaram in OK, and those aren't guaranteed wipes by any stretch. Maybe you could count the Brann event in HoS too. But for anything else, the "function" of dps is to make it go faster.

I remember HoL HC (before or when PDK was released) being an ass - played my twink up and all were "so-so" geared - questitems, some blues, nothing like today. It was FUCKING hard. We wiped about 4-5 times - end boss with nova was the hardest off all.

I say - play WotLK HC with ppl with the usual gear and it will be hard, really hard.

Oh, and don't forget - WotLK at start was a way harder, then the gear got better, the skills changed, more theorycraft then ever before, the dungenon finder came in (hc with everyone in 185 blue = easy) and the players itself got better. The playstyle changed and the dps was going trough the roof.

Sad thing is, with ToC the gear started to get levels, the hc's weren't designed for. Same will happen with cata - now it's hard, but with the second or third tier gear, it will be easy again

[ryoukthebloodelf]

i guess noobs like me who never experienced bc dunguens will juswt have to run regs sev times to learn and adapt to the higher difficulty that we never got to experience

[Gilian]

I like almost everything I see from the videos of beta heroics. There are some things that could be better but the difficulty seems perfect. Also the mechanics, need for CC, etc. are very good. Much better than at the start of WotLK.

---------- Post added 2010-09-26 at 08:22 PM ----------

I remember HoL HC (before or when PDK was released) being an ass - played my twink up and all were "so-so" geared - questitems, some blues, nothing like today. It was FUCKING hard. We wiped about 4-5 times - end boss with nova was the hardest off all.

I say - play WotLK HC with ppl with the usual gear and it will be hard, really hard.

Oh, and don't forget - WotLK at start was a way harder, then the gear got better, the skills changed, more theorycraft then ever before, the dungenon finder came in (hc with everyone in 185 blue = easy) and the players itself got better. The playstyle changed and the dps was going trough the roof.

Sad thing is, with ToC the gear started to get levels, the hc's weren't designed for. Same will happen with cata - now it's hard, but with the second or third tier gear, it will be easy again

Love it when someone posts stuff randomly without having a clue.

[eatedcookie]

I'm definitely only going to venture into dungeons with at least two other trusted guildmates, for the first tier of Cataclysm or so. It's not that I feel like I'll personally have trouble, I just don't trust the LFG to provide competent players! This makes me happy.

Agreed wholeheartedly!

[Its Electric]

I like the idea, but alas we're all dreaming if we think that either:
A) The community will adapt and overcome
B) They don't and begin to quit and blizzard still doesn't nerf.
I like this but at the same time I don't. Reason I don't is because Blizzard sure as hell can't balance numbers, which will inevitably lead to stacking.

If not I'd be all for this, it will bring up the average 1337ness of players regardless of what happens.

[Vetis]

Maerad - end boss with nova was hard? yes, running out when he starts casting then back in is the hardest thing ever to achieve.

[Gilian]

I hope that there will be some "discount" on performance regarding the LFG.
otherwise it will make some dungeon , instant break once u get there.
cause pps know that it's gonna be wipe feast.
I know that on some Wolk hc dungeons I had the best dmg as tank cause the lfg system got me with pps on greens/blue and most didn't know what they are doing or care..
maybe we go back to the days of BC where u went hc with guildies / friends only.

Or people who actually want to play WoW will begin to play better otherwise they don't get very far. If they don't want to progress any further because it is "hard" then that's their problem. WoW is not hard and never has been hard, it's just a game. I don't understand how tuning the game for people who can't play video games is a good thing.

We are not talking about heroic raids. We are talking about 5 man heroic dungeons... Those have never been hard. The only problem in TBC was that the difference in group set ups was too big. Some classes made dungeons much easier because of the mechanics. And now classes are much better balanced and they all have CC, good dps and they can all bring buffs for the group.

[Deleted]

as long as they remove the kick-limitations(like only one kick each instance, 15-30min kick protection)
the difficulty will be fine.
i just hate it to carry people through instances that cant do their job properly.

[Kutabi]

I remember HoL HC (before or when PDK was released) being an ass - played my twink up and all were "so-so" geared - questitems, some blues, nothing like today. It was FUCKING hard. We wiped about 4-5 times - end boss with nova was the hardest off all.

I say - play WotLK HC with ppl with the usual gear and it will be hard, really hard.

Oh, and don't forget - WotLK at start was a way harder, then the gear got better, the skills changed, more theorycraft then ever before, the dungenon finder came in (hc with everyone in 185 blue = easy) and the players itself got better. The playstyle changed and the dps was going trough the roof.

Sad thing is, with ToC the gear started to get levels, the hc's weren't designed for. Same will happen with cata - now it's hard, but with the second or third tier gear, it will be easy again

Wiping 4-5 times is nothing compared to the wipefest going on in some of the cata heroics.
The problem with wrath heroics was the fact that they were trivial even before you got any sort of raiding gear.
Also, a lot of the difficulty around these bosses OP mentioned is the fact that they have abilities that will one shot you no matter what. Gear means nothing if someone doesn't know to stay out of a dust cloud or dps chains down before they get completely ass-raped.