Point of doing 25 man in Cataclysm?

[Elixor]

It's more of a design view like bring back true heroics,CC,and making epics feel epic again(which they did) so I have a good feeling but whatever I don't care can't prove myself right as Blizzard hasn't released the raids on the Beta so their's no point arguing I believe they'll carry thru if enough ppl control their Q.Q

25 man gives more computer problems (fps etc).
25 man gives more trouble with "controlling" people (15 more).
25 man gives less space "to move in" (25 retards make more fuss in the same sauna than 10).

Those are something Blizz can´t help with. And it kinda makes it "harder".

[Deleted]

Name one famous 10man guild.


There, you have your answer.


Also, 25 man allows for more raid stacking. You'd need 3 paladins in a 10man to get all their buffs, one being a tankadin, in a 25man, 3 paladins are not that uncommon.

[Overwelm]

25 man will drop more loot/points per person, from what I've heard. Say you get 2 drops and 10 valor points from one boss on 10 man. So one piece of gear per 5 people, 10 points per person. In 25, if they follow through with what they've said, they'll drop something like 6 pieces of gear and maybe 15 points, so 1 piece of gear per ~4 people and 15 points per person.

That's how I understand it, at least.

That is how it will be and a very good example of it.

Ofc, it could be completely different then that, but that's how I and I believe blizzard is trying get across.

[Asmekiel]

The only reason I hear that people like 10m better than 25m is because of the amount of possible screw-ups.
atm 10m is easier, so people who fail can hide it longer in there. But come Cataclysm, with the same difficulty on both sizes, people will come to realize that the percentage of people failing is the same on both raidsizes.

Can anyone explain to me how it is possible rhat there are 5 very good 10mans running around, but not a single good 25 man? at least, that's what everyone tries to let me believe.

[Zheryn]

Maybe because they enjoy it more? People are playing the game to have fun, if they think 25mans is more fun than 10mans they will play it. If everyone thinks 10man is more fun than 25mans, then I guess no one should be sad if 25mans died?

[ComputerNerd]

Because you can.
The gear issue, which is the most common one brought up is easily justified by the differing progression of 10 man and 25 guilds.
A smaller guild should not have that extra gear hurdle overcome because larger guilds could run both difficulties not only awarding more gear, but a gear stepping stone making that jump to the next tier of content easier.
You should play one or the other because you want to, not because you have to.
A smaller guild just as skilled in 10 mans as a larger one should not have that extra hurdle to progression.
Let skill determine your progression, not the size of your guild.

Overused excuse about catering to casuals which always comes from those who were in the lucky position to be raiding 25 mans.
You had a distinct advantage, but are too blind to see that.

[Peanus]

Sorry, but the reason of 25 mans being more "epic" is just complete bull. Not buying it. Its a matter of taste. If you want to rely on several people in order to get your boss kills, epics, achieves, what not, fine, have fun. I could understand it if you were playing among the top 500 guilds in the world, but the majority doesn't.

While I will enjoy 10 man content, knowing every player in and out, more flexibility, easier to get in touch with each other. No whining about loot, or anything else from people you barely know.

Its word against word, some prefers 10, others 25. Its the same content. 25 mans being more epic is nonsense.

[Skyrim the Souless]

If you ask me the only REAL reason this is being implemented is in relation to how for years now WoW has been getting more and more casualized.

This is just another step in appealing to the casual mass.

Cata has bought back many good concepts and it's a massive step upwards from WotLK so far on the beta. The idea for 10/25 to share lockouts isn't a bad one how they implement it however is key.

[meroko]

All of the 10 man modes that were "harder" than their 25 man counterparts were fights you couldn't outgear...i.e. Sarth3D (when it wasn't possible yet) Herald of the Titans (Alg 10 to me was way harder in the appropriate gear)

Hell LK10 heroic is pretty tough in the approriate gear (definitely not harder than 25mans but still)

The point is...what 10 mans can you outgear in cataclysm? Until they are previous content, none. It will be impossible which is why 10 man will truly be as hard as 25 man. Coordination wise 25 is harder, but mistake wise you can't afford to lose as many in 10.

[Deleted]

Name one famous 10man guild.


There, you have your answer.


Also, 25 man allows for more raid stacking. You'd need 3 paladins in a 10man to get all their buffs, one being a tankadin, in a 25man, 3 paladins are not that uncommon.

I personally enjoy 25man more, but your comment won't be valid after 4.0.1 hits.
Blessing of Sanctuary will be gone.
Blessing of Kings is the same as Mark of the Wild.
Blessing of Might and Wisdom will be combined into one blessing, while several other classes give the same buffs (or only the might or only the wisdom part).

[Flarpy]

10 and 25 mans will have their unique differences. Not only will 25mans likely have a better chance of gearing you up and your guild, but I believe Blizzard also mentioned more points would drop. Blizzard has made it clear that the numbers are not set in stone for amount of loot drops and points, but plan on 25 dropping more of both. And if you have seen some of the Valor gear, I suspect people will really try hard for 25 mans. So here are a few reasons why 25 mans make sense.

1. A lot of people find them more entertaining. Sure, some people would love to solo as much content as they could. Some people are loners, other people like larger groups. Its just a difference of what entertains each group. Some people like large groups.

2. More class/race buffs. Diversity is always important and its harder to get that in 10 man groups. Maybe your 10man really needs a rogue or a shaman, but your group is already full. 25mans make it much easier to get a diverse group, which almost always means more DPS, healing, and survivability.

3. More gear/points. This is self explanatory. If you want to be one of the best geared players, plan on doing 25mans.

4. Guild progression. I think this new raid setup will do wonders for separating what types of guilds there are. Casual players, PUG players, or players in a small guild will likely do 10mans. They will be easier to set up. Hardcore players or those in larger guilds will likely go for 25s. If your 25man group is more coordinated than a 10man PUG group, the content could actually be easier. Mistakes in 10mans are much more lethal than mistakes in 25man groups.

I don't get it. I see plenty of incentive for a lot of players to still go 25.

[Tayfow]

Also, 25 man allows for more raid stacking. You'd need 3 paladins in a 10man to get all their buffs, one being a tankadin, in a 25man, 3 paladins are not that uncommon.

The raid buffs are getting spread around. Unless you're going for the pro comp of 8 warriors and 2 priests, you will have every buff you need in a 10 man raid setting. Thus, they can tune the content appropriately and kinda tone down the raidstacking cheese that currently happens in ten man content "Hm, this is a rogue friendly fight? Well we just happen to have 4 hanging around with nothing to do."

[Evilmonkey]

doing 25 mans will always be the prefered methoed for the "hardcores". the best guilds will probly always be judged off 25 man content for world/server firsts. blizzard most likly will make incentives for doing 25 over 10. if i were to guess (besides more loot) id say:

1. more points per boss kill possibly capping you on valor points for the week.
like Jorick said, 10 points on 10 and 15 on 25 for example.

2. increased drop chance for legendaries (ie shadowfrost shards)
25% chance on 10 and 50% chance on 25 for example.

3. increased guild reputation/experience


thats all i can think of off the top of my head but more loot alone will elad to faster gearing which will lead to faster progression. only tihng i hope is they dont do more LOL30%FREELOOTGIVEAWAY.

tl:dr blizz wont let 25 man die, itll have better rewards in the end.


flarpy beat me to it. >.>

[Arrowstormen]

Name one famous 10man guild.


There, you have your answer.

.....what?
so, because no big known guild who raids 10 is "famous" 25man is better?
the only real answear is, what you want to. they give both the same gear, so not more to win. 25man isnt harder than 10man. and even if there is a little more things for 25man, its not enough to dont let you choose what you best like yourself.

---------- Post added 2010-10-03 at 03:41 AM ----------

i, personally, like 10man, but i also like 25man. but i would like it to be 10man 66-75% and 25man 25-33%

[Vordea]

I'm sorry but I just can't take 10 man guilds seriously. "oh look at us we got 14 players in our guild" Yeah nobody cares, come back when you have to deal with the headache of a 25 man raiding guild. 10 man guilds will still get ignored even if they get world firsts, and the masses will still only care about who gets what done on 25 man.

[AlexGrey]

You get more epics for a lesser amount of players. Case and Point.

---------- Post added 2010-10-03 at 01:44 AM ----------

I'm sorry but I just can't take 10 man guilds seriously. "oh look at us we got 14 players in our guild" Yeah nobody cares, come back when you have to deal with the headache of a 25 man raiding guild. 10 man guilds will still get ignored even if they get world firsts, and the masses will still only care about who gets what done on 25 man.

Maybe some people don't like headaches? >.>

Seriously, mang, not all 25 man guilds are hard to manage... 1 bad person in a 10 man amplifies the chance to fail opposed to 1 bad person in the 25 equivalent.

No more ignorant spats, please?

[Peanus]

I'm sorry but I just can't take 10 man guilds seriously. "oh look at us we got 14 players in our guild" Yeah nobody cares, come back when you have to deal with the headache of a 25 man raiding guild. 10 man guilds will still get ignored even if they get world firsts, and the masses will still only care about who gets what done on 25 man.

Sorry man, but if your not in one of the top 5 guilds in the world, I couldnt care less. Those are the guilds the masses care about. No one cares about your shitty 25 man guild.

[AlexGrey]

doing 25 mans will always be the prefered methoed for the "hardcores". the best guilds will probly always be judged off 25 man content for world/server firsts. blizzard most likly will make incentives for doing 25 over 10. if i were to guess (besides more loot) id say:

1. more points per boss kill possibly capping you on valor points for the week.
like Jorick said, 10 points on 10 and 15 on 25 for example.

2. increased drop chance for legendaries (ie shadowfrost shards)
25% chance on 10 and 50% chance on 25 for example.

3. increased guild reputation/experience


thats all i can think of off the top of my head but more loot alone will elad to faster gearing which will lead to faster progression. only tihng i hope is they dont do more LOL30%FREELOOTGIVEAWAY.

tl:dr blizz wont let 25 man die, itll have better rewards in the end.


flarpy beat me to it. >.>

I don't think they'll let 25 mans die either, it does add a more epic experience to the raiding environment. I am anxious to see what the future holds, and if 5 mans start becoming even MORE focused... Magister's Terrace was an early proto-type of that design.

[Zamiel]

I'm sorry but I just can't take 10 man guilds seriously. "oh look at us we got 14 players in our guild" Yeah nobody cares, come back when you have to deal with the headache of a 25 man raiding guild. 10 man guilds will still get ignored even if they get world firsts, and the masses will still only care about who gets what done on 25 man.

That just sounds like masochism to me. Yeah I can get the best loot and only have to organize 10 people but I'd rather make things twice as difficult by having to get 25 people together and putting in this much extra effort to get the same reward.

[AlexGrey]

Sorry man, but if your not in one of the top 5 guilds in the world, I couldnt care less. Those are the guilds the masses care about. No one cares about your shitty 25 man guild.

I for one hope they are having fun, and not just creating stress in their own lives by playing a game they hate .

But ya overall the 10 man raids pretty much did only slightly better than the 25s on a macro scale.