GC Quotes of 2008 on Heroic Dungeons

[Deleted]

If you're seriously arguing that Wotlk heroics took any amount of skill or coordination in the beginning... they didn't. They were roflstomped and just a question of how hard you could press your AoE button. Just like they are now. And I think the OP is making a very good point with the quotes. History have a tendency to repeat itself.

[Gilian]

Actually, I spent less time thinking about you calling GC a liar... and more time considering how creepy it was you took the time to put all those quotes together.

Don't bump his living room window too loud while you're staring in.

Heroics did have some challenge initially. The issues is that they don't scale at all (outside of a few mobs that do % damage, yay spellflingers) and gear running amuck. However, in Naxx gear and below they actually did present some challenge.

I'm not particularily sure that the same issue won't happen in cata when end game tanks are running heroics with twice the HP of the current beta groups... and DPS is hitting several times harder.

At some point in time, the issue becomes that heroics just aren't made to entertain end game raiders. Yeah, they were a kick in the balls in BC - but honestly, the original model was flawed (and corrected).

I guess my point is... perhaps people shouldn't expect heroics from an expansion release to present a challenge a year or two after they come out. Just like t1 content wasn't supposed to drop kick guilds geared wiht t3. and t7 content isn't supposed to destroy groups in t10.

WotLK dungeons could have been tuned a bit better I suppose... and hit a little harder. But, even with that, we'd still be destroying them today.

It's not about today. It's about the start of wotlk.

The overgearing argument has been proved wrong many times. So please stop using it. Obviously when you overgear something it becomes easier.

---------- Post added 2010-10-04 at 08:47 AM ----------

Heroics were tuned for 174-187 gear. Obviously that was a mistake and they should've tuned it for 187-200, but too late now.

And I never said that Sunwell gear was overgearing.

"If you came into Wrath in Sunwell gear, yeah, it was going to be easy..."

That really looks like you are saying it. Why else would it make wotlk heroics easy? Because it is Sunwell gear and magically makes things easy?

And then you say:

"If you started heroics in questing greens and blues, like they were tuned for (and neither the tank or healer of the group overgeared it), they were challenging."

So Sunwell gear is not overgearing it but makes dungeons easy. Gear 20 ilvls higher is not overgearing it but makes dungeons challenging.

[Rivin]

"If you came into Wrath in Sunwell gear, yeah, it was going to be easy..."

That really looks like you are saying it. Why else would it make wotlk heroics easy? Because it is Sunwell gear and magically makes things easy?

Sunwell gear was itemized well enough that it was usable in T7 raids. If you could raid in it, it was more than fine for heroics, even if the item level was slightly lower than what they were tuned for. And remember, epics have a higher stat allocation than blues.

[Samimasi]

I never did ulduar from the start but I heard there was only 1 trashpack that needed CC.

And ICC, really, where did you use CC in ICC? If you only raided ICC with 30% buff then don't come here acting like you know how it was without.

I wasn't only referring to CC, but faceroll-aoe-fest trash in general (Check last GC quote in the orginal thread).

And, I did raid ICC since day one (unlike you with Ulduar, but somehow it's ok for you to make judgements based on things you've heard).

[Gilian]

I wasn't only referring to CC, but faceroll-aoe-fest trash in general (Check last GC quote in the orginal thread).

And, I did raid ICC since day one (unlike you with Ulduar, but somehow it's ok for you to make judgements based on things you've heard).

The difference is (like you don't understand) that I said I never done Ulduar at the start and I heard there wasn't a lot of CC.
You on the other hand just claim something like it's a fact.

If you raided ICC from the start you know there is nothing you need to CC. And still you say they achieved "the not so faceroll" trash in ICC. Then what is faceroll for you?

---------- Post added 2010-10-04 at 10:01 AM ----------

Sunwell gear was itemized well enough that it was usable in T7 raids. If you could raid in it, it was more than fine for heroics, even if the item level was slightly lower than what they were tuned for. And remember, epics have a higher stat allocation than blues.

Sooo, it was overgearing?

[Dragonwing]

I think the ICC part was the hilarious part. Ulduar trash was definitely NOT an AoE fest, especially when it was current content. We always used CC on the multiple mob pulls near General, focus fire near Mimiron, have ranged burst bombs, etc.

But ICC was a complete joke. You could pull multiple groups in Plague and just AoE it all even with the 0% buff. Blood's trash was just stupidly annoying. There was no clever mechanic, just SAPTANK, GIBDPS, TROLOLOL.

So yeah, ICC trash was pretty disappointing.

About the blood wing part, you say it isnt hard but annoying because one of the mobs has an ability that stuns your tank....

Hmm...

You know, in a dungeon, where you have a mob that casts an ability which can kill your tank/if he loses threat, your dps, you know what you do about it?

You use crowd control on that particular enemy. Mind blowing, isnt it?

In our ICC raids we shackle the tactician at the start of every pull. See, i dont get why whenever a mob in a past instance had an ability which could wipe your group, CC was used and "it was great", but in a CURRENT instance, when there is a mob with a dangerous ability, it is just "stupidly annoying". Uhh, i think that calls for CC actually, which you people praise so much. If you say CC was good, and you have to CC on a particular pull, how is that stupidly annoying?

Stupidly hypocritical imo

---------- Post added 2010-10-04 at 09:07 AM ----------

If you're seriously arguing that Wotlk heroics took any amount of skill or coordination in the beginning... they didn't. They were roflstomped and just a question of how hard you could press your AoE button. Just like they are now. And I think the OP is making a very good point with the quotes. History have a tendency to repeat itself.

Uhh no, they were not roflstomped "just like they were now". Now, everyone overgears them by 50 item levels. Back in early wrath when everyone was fresh 80 with no raid epics, they werent.

[Deleted]

Wrath heroics was easy when i tanked em in t5/t6 plus a few blues a week after release.. :S

after that i quit, cos my pc sucked and i couldnt stand waiting 6 months for ulduar.. came back in november '09 and my old guild threw me right into TOC25 as resto in half t6, 1/4 ilv 200 epics and 1/4 blues.. still did fine there.. (but i've allways thought resto was more about skiils than gear anyways)

[Samimasi]

And still you say they achieved "the not so faceroll" trash in ICC. Then what is faceroll for you?

Are the mob packs before Blood Prince for example aoe-fest-faceroll with 0% buff and 232/245 gear raid?

If you answer yes, then you're just arguing for the sake of it. If you answer no, then they accomplished GC's last quote;

"I would not expect the strategy in Ulduar and Icecrown to be: I'll Swipe while you guys Blizzard. Volley and Hurricane down all the trash."

- GC, 11/24/2008

and that's all I was saying

[Izenhart]

I lol'd.

Yeah, indeed, let's lol!

Let's go in Ulduar pre Vezax's trashes in 213/few 226 gear and AoE them all!


You go first mkay?

[arokos]

I would like to point out the only hard raid or dungeons where ICC 5 mans, Ulduar, and very end of icc.

Naxx is easy for anyone that had run kara
heroics is a joke
toc is joke

[Gamerstud]

In my experience, Wrath heroics were always easy, well before "overgearing" came into it.

They weren't the facerolling experience they are now, but they were never anything to get excited about; and the smart groups were easily roflstomping them from the beginning. If you avoided the 1-2 heroics that could possibly push a fresh 80, there was no reason to ever run a normal dungeon once you hit 80.

[Deleted]

cool story bro? Not sure why you expect us to care about this.

Cool story bro will get you banned, in text or in picture, i belive Sunshine said so.:3

[Nerph-]

I agree... but the difference is that in Cataclysm, it's both intended and has been implemented.

Yes but the quotes are about heroic dungeons in WotLK.

[darkwarrior42]

For the record, Wrath Heroics were not hard at the beginning. First time I did Halls of Stone, it was painful.... but I was also incredibly undergeared. I was ecstatic to get that ilvl 200 blue haste/SP plate chest, and I had *maybe* 1500 SP and 16k mana as a holy pally. I also had my old Kara libram still, no emblem gear of any sort.... you get the idea. So yeah, HoS heroic was hard... but the group was so poorly geared we shouldn't have been successful, really.

That run took place on December 3rd, 2008. One day later, I ran H VH and got the Defenseless achievement. 6 days after that, a total of one week after my first heroic, I ran Culling of Stratholme heroic for the first time... and we beat the timer, so I got the Culling of Time achievement. One week from "wow, I'm really undergeared" to getting time-based heroic achievements? I didn't gear up *that* fast, trust me. (For reference, I got the "Superior" achievement January 6th, and cleared my first Naxx wing on January 7th.)

[Enkidulgaa]

The problem is not only that heroics were untertuned, mechanics were overtuned.
Healing and tanking were insanely easy since the start of wrath. Healers never went out of mana, tanking was a joke. You overgear heroics before you even set foot into them. You'd have to do them in howling fjord green to actually be challenged.

[Deleted]

Cite your sources please.

[superstargoddess]

Yeah, indeed, let's lol!

Let's go in Ulduar pre Vezax's trashes in 213/few 226 gear and AoE them all!


You go first mkay?

That junk was just annoying back in the day!

[Deleted]

Sunwell gear was itemized well enough that it was usable in T7 raids. If you could raid in it, it was more than fine for heroics, even if the item level was slightly lower than what they were tuned for. And remember, epics have a higher stat allocation than blues.

I completed Naxx 25 on my old main (rogue) in T6 gear, it wasnt challenging at all. Heroics wernt even challenging at the start of wrath if you had more than 5 braincells to work with.

If the Cata heroics are deemed 'too hard' they will nerf them just like they did with Oculus. (which was just a joke)

[Tayfow]

Cite your sources please.

Chicago or MLA?

Can't we all just agree to hold our breath, make a wish, and count to 3 that the heroics in Cat will bring back feelings of doing something worthwhile? I know the second the game is made more difficult again all my bitterness will evaporate and I'll want to talk with other members of the community besides my guild. You know, get advice on specs, trade tips on how best to take a boss down, teach someone who just got the game recently the proper ways to play, like I was taught so long ago by one hunter with loads of patience.

Whether mouthbreathers want to admit it or not, I've found it to be true in the years I've played video games: the more challenging the content, the closer the community sticks together. Because then it doesn't feel like you're playing against those other people, like it does on live currently. It feels like you're playing with them, you have the common goal of surmounting the obstacle between you and shinies. Even if it means *gasp* listening to the advice of a *double gasp* stranger, who couldn't possibly know more than you because he ain't the boss of you.

I remember all of these announcements GC made at the start of Wrath, OP. And I remember endlessly facepalming as I saw all the classes get their aoe abilities buffed time and time again. It was as though someone said "Hm, this class hits a little too hard right now," and the devs only listened to Looney Larry, who's advice was "WHY DON'T WE JUST LET EVERYONE AOE REAL GOOD?"

It's a sweet sweet solace to check the beta forums and see people whining that they can't just round up mobs and aoe them down while questing. And that trying to aoe packs of elites in Heroics is the fast track to being oom and dead.

[stgeorge78]

Cite your sources please.

They are all out there, I used Curse.com (MMO Champion's parent company). The beta forums for WOTLK are gone or I'd give direct source links, but these are all genuine quotes. If you were around back then then you would remember some of these.

The point is that GC designed the game from the beginning to avoid AOE & emphasize CC and even before the first hard mode was out and way before there was a chance to overgear the heroics, the community surprised him when they started AOE'ing everything in sight. You can almost see the helplessness as he refuses to believe that everyone is abusing the precious mechanics he worked so hard on (and failed quite miserably at). GC is a bit of a stubbornhead and everyone on the Wrath beta forums at the time warned him that the dungeons and raids were too easy but he refused to believe.

I don't doubt that Cata dungeons are hard now, so maybe they accomplished their goal there, but GC is now ignoring on the Cata beta forums that tanking and healing are way too hard. So perhaps we'll see the opposite reaction this time.

Here's a possible GC quote shortly after the release of Cataclysm:

"The number of tanks & healers seem abnormally low... this is nothing to be concerned with, they will come around once they realize how awesome my tanking and healing design is."

- GC, 12/8/2010?