Silly, immature question

[phayze]

OK, ok, before I ask, yes I know it's silly and I shouldn't be worried but I have a question to ask some raiders that care about epeen.

There was a raid that was happening, and two people got into an argument. It boiled down to DPS, and a bet was made.

Player A, and Player B. Both very similar gear level, both melee dps, both on the boss from beginning to end.

Player A did approximately 20% more DAMAGE than Player B.

Due to documented nuances with how the recount mod calculates "DPS", Player B's "DPS" was listed in Recount to be higher, even though he did 20% less overall damage (and no, there was no extra damage or debuff or connection issue or anything). All damage was single target DPS, so not AOE to adulterate the damage.

If log was made and uploaded to WoL or WMO, DPS would have gotten calculated correctly, and Player B's DPS would have been lower.

Player B insists his DPS was better than Player A, and therefore he won the bet, refusing to even try to educate himself on how Recount DPS isn't exactly accurate.

Who won the bet?

[Deleted]

Neither, raiding isn't about being the top dps of your group. It's about doing content with people you enjoy playing with.

[Reixy]

Player A.
I'm not 100% sure on this, but I believe it has something to do when the first hit lands from both players? Reguardless, he did more damage which is the point, dps is just a number for quick glancing.

[Stanton Biston]

Depends on the bet. If you don't spell it out, then AP PoM Pyro boss pulls are a great way to get really high DPS.

Spell out the terms of the bet.

[Deleted]

player B, if the bet was about dps that is
if player B has more DPS, but player A has more overall damage done, player B has just been slacking

[Nikoll]

that large of a difference means player b had a recount error calculating dps.

[fizikz]

damage is more important than DPS. I make this same comment for every post that's made on the subject.

recount's "dps" tracker is just stupid in how it tracks it - I don't know the mechanics, but I remember on my level 20 rogue I managed to get 2 dots ticking at the same time, and achieved something like 400 DPS (which is stupid high) just because of the way recount was tracking the data.

Think about it in practical terms: the boss has health that needs to be taken away, not some magical raid DPS that once achieved, no matter if it's only for .001 seconds will kill him.

If you have 2 dps, and one does 1,000 out of 10,000 HP damage to the boss in 1/2 a second, he's done 2k DPS. now player B (assuming only 2 dps) does 9,000 damage, but over a full minute. that's 150 DPS. who contributed more to the kill? obviously, the player who did 9000 damage.

did DPS tell you anything important? no, not really, if you went by DPS, the first player (pulling 2k!) would have been over 13 times more valuable in defeating the boss, yet that obviously isn't the case.


also as others pointed out, "AP - POM - PYRO - DIE" is a great way to top dps, but does next to nothing when you're trying to actually kill a boss.

---------- Post added 2010-10-05 at 03:12 AM ----------

if player B has more DPS, but player A has more overall damage done, player B has just been slacking

just terrible DPS uptime - things like taking forever to move out of boss abilities, not using instants while moving to reduce casting them while standing still etc. a lot of things can contribute to this sort of "error" but it's mostly because the person who did more damage played smarter.

[Deleted]

Funny how nobody votes for the 2nd option, yet everybody uses Recount. Get Damage Meters people... for the sake of your raid

[phayze]

The bet was who could do more "dps". It wasn't clarified if it meant actual damage per second or just plain damage [since depending on who you ask both names are interchangable]. Either way, B's parsed damage per second would be lower than A's, because he did so much less damage during the same time-on-boss. Player B's excuse of course is being threatcapped, but both A and B had the same threat issues.

[Stanton Biston]

The bet was who could do more "dps". It wasn't clarified if it meant actual damage per second or just plain damage [since depending on who you ask both names are interchangable]. Either way, B's parsed damage per second would be lower than A's, because he did so much less damage during the same time-on-boss. Player B's excuse of course is being threatcapped, but both A and B had the same threat issues.

If the bet was for DPS and not effective DPS than the bet goes to B. I'd say A owned B, but bets are rarely subject to interpretation.

[bigfoot1291]

The actual number of DPS is worthless.
Damage done is what matters.

[Horrid Crow]

player B, if the bet was about dps that is
if player B has more DPS, but player A has more overall damage done, player B has just been slacking

Not really. Example: Arcane Mages can dish out a lot of DPS in the first 15 seconds of fight, but after that are quickly surpassed in terms of damage done. Now because they are still doing much damage, their DPS won't drop that fast/much before the next outburst of damage cooldowns.
Affliction Warlocks need ramp up time and most likely won't show as high DPS as the Arcane Mage, but probably total damage done is more by the end of the fight.

[Ebbikenezer]

It REALLY depends on how the bet was worded, imo. Just trying to outflex one another? Or trying to see who does more or.. idk. /shrug. If it comes down to just.. performance?... I look at damage because higher damage = they contribute more to the fight or they lived longer meaning they don't die to RNG or being stupid as often.

It's all subjective, and there's really not a clear way to sum up the winner unless you made the bet clear and concise to begin with.

Also: Playing too much WoW isn't enough so be sure to get into some gambling while you're at it!

[Organoth]

Dame Done > DPS always, always, always. This is an old debate and any one attempting to claim otherwise shouldn't be raiding end game. Yes your bet was childish but I can understand tyring to keep things interesting after a year of ICC. Beyond Recount being a bad tool to measure this sort of thing there are plenty of ways you can "cheat" to have higher DPS even if your Damage Done is lower. Delaying your first attack is one of them, people have been using that trick for years and it's one of the main flaws of recount. There are also some abilities that can scew the numbers, Kill Shot for example. Getting in really big hits off a special talent can boost your "DPS" because you are effectively doing two to three times the damage of a normal hit in an insta shot ability. I know you said both classes are melee, it's just an example.

This really should have been done using logs and not Recount but from the time the boss is pulled to the time the boss dies, who ever did the most TOTAL damage wins. If the difference was as significant as you say, 20%, then player B needs to go learn how to play and admit he lost. I don't care if recount shows he did one million DPS, if player A beat him by 20% damage done then play B lost and lost badly.

[Deleted]

Player B had more DPS than Player A, but Player A did 20% more damage than Player B... Leaves us at least 3 scenarios!

1. That basicly means that Player B doesn't know how to play, with that amount of DPS he should be way higher.
2. That Player B's recount has bugged, or some saved data from another fight, or that he's been looking on Overall DPS, and not 'current fight' - I believe when it comes to recount, it all boils down to which data being valuable, is those on current fights. IMO.
3. That Player B just slacked off, been sucking on some nice DPS from AOE trash and slacking on bosses watching telly or tabbing to Facebook on a fight.

That's my 2cents, I know a lot of people have different ideas on how to view data which recount provides us. But basicly, it's all about 'Current Fight' and then it's damage done. DPS shows good gear, damage done shows skills. Am I right?

[Richmond]

I was toying between the first and the third option...

I wont call you immature because i use recount and its nice to see how you fair against the rest of the raid, especially in pugs. Nice to see when your beating your other half (Fury warrior vs Fury warrior for instance).

But on the same note, i'd never see how an argument or a bet would come out of it...

Recount is flawed to a degree, since the start of WoTLK (when i installed Recount) i have always had it on Damage Done - Current fight.

[Quanille]

Aight people this is simple, recount only records your DPS as long as you're attacking the boss, "Example"

Player A pops all CDs hits the boss goes to 15k DPS, stands back and goes afk for the rest of the fight, DPS drops slightly from DoT ticks.
Result: 14k DPS, 250k Damage done

Player B pops all CDs hits the boss goes to 15k DPS, keeps attacking after CDs wear off, DPS drops to 13.9k by the time of the kill
Result: 13.9k DPS, 2.5 Million Damage done

The way recount works makes the "DPS" listed inaccurate, it does not show your DPS from Pull until Kill of the boss, but DPS while actually Attacking, which makes it useless to settle your bet.

If you want an accurate result, take damage done (For each of you individually) divide it by the ammount of seconds the encounter took, and you have actual DPS for the encounter.

Put to use on the examples above:

Say the encounter took 2 minutes, "120 Seconds"

Player A 250k damage done, divided by 120 seconds
250.000/120=2083,33 DPS

Player B 2.5 Million damage done, divided by 120 seconds
2.500.000/120=20833,33 DPS

Hope this answers your questions

[Ebbikenezer]

Aight people this is simple, recount only records your DPS as long as you're attacking the boss, "Example"

Player A pops all CDs hits the boss goes to 15k DPS, stands back and goes afk for the rest of the fight, DPS drops slightly from DoT ticks.
Result: 14k DPS, 250k Damage done

Player B pops all CDs hits the boss goes to 15k DPS, keeps attacking after CDs wear off, DPS drops to 13.9k by the time of the kill
Result: 13.9k DPS, 2.5 Million Damage done

The way recount works makes the "DPS" listed inaccurate, it does not show your DPS from Pull until Kill of the boss, but DPS while actually Attacking, which makes it useless to settle your bet.

If you want an accurate result, take damage done (For each of you individually) divide it by the ammount of seconds the encounter took, and you have actual DPS for the encounter.

Put to use on the examples above:

Say the encounter took 2 minutes, "120 Seconds"

Player A 250k damage done, divided by 120 seconds
250.000/120=2083,33 DPS

Player B 2.5 Million damage done, divided by 120 seconds
2.500.000/120=20833,33 DPS

Hope this answers your questions

You are absolutely correct.... and by that ANY melee class can "outDPS" any "dotting" class (Aff locks, SP's) extensively b/c Recount simply divides damage done by time attacking, DoTs are ALWAYS ticking making Recount count DoTters as ALWAYS attacking, so even though they can come out ... a ridiculous amount ahead in damage they can fall substantially behind in DPS. According to Recount. I don't even know why people would bet on any numbers produced via Recount to begin with.. but w/e.

I guess for some sure gold, just use a melee class and bet against a dotter with comparable gear/experience (to make it seem fair) nuke your DPS up and go die in a fire.

If they REALLY want to solve the dispute, they should both go, unbuffed, to some practice dummies, set some standard rules, and run combat logs to upload to an agreed upon site. They'll have a much more clear answer this way.

[Deleted]

Still, you are nitpicking over a badly drawn up bet.
Just redo the whole thing and clearly line out whether it'll be DPS or Damage done, and play into that. If the bet stays about DPS, just blow every wtf30minimbapwnCD you got and hand him hiss ass on a 0-dmg-done-plate.

[Zhira]

You never make bets on DPS because one can easily "cheat" a high DPS, for instance if I choose to pop Haste Pot > Blade Flurry / Killing Spree and lastly Adrenaline Rush at the last, say 15% of a boss fight. My DPS would skyrocket and the result would be me making shit damage overall but with a ridiculous DPS

Always bet on damage done overall imo.