Mitigation of all 4 tanks... Looks like DKs come out ahead?

[Imnick]

Quick, let's redo the trees again so they are completely identical and the only difference between tanks is whether they look like a bear, a zombie or an iron clown.

[Deleted]

Nothing new here, DK's have always been the cooldown tanks.

[Deleted]

On HM I would definitely have a warrior or a paladin OT, due because the adds enrage on their own at 20% which I don't think you can remove with tranq shot. For normal ofc, doesn't matter at all who's doing the OTing.

Thing is, the higher stacks of plague you got, the faster they die. With a Warrior/Druid OT you have the least Ghouls and you'll have Shamblers at sub 20% hp for a longer time, since the plague doesn't tick for as much. As a side note, the Shamblers will probably also be very close to stun DR by that time. The Pally is the superior OT for P1.

A Warrior pushing his class can definately compete, though.

[Deleted]

bye bye bears? :'(

[Deleted]

Thing is, the higher stacks of plague you got, the faster they die. With a Warrior/Druid OT you have the least Ghouls and you'll have Shamblers at sub 20% hp for a longer time, since the plague doesn't tick for as much. As a side note, the Shamblers will probably also be very close to stun DR by that time. The Pally is the superior OT for P1.

Aye, can't really dispute any of that. Though having many ghouls can also work against the OT. I know from experience that sometimes, since I have so many ghouls on me, the plague actually gets stuck hopping between the ghouls for so long that the last shambler only barely dies before the end of the first transition phase. That would be potentially disastrous on HM.

[Steeda_]

Thing is, the higher stacks of plague you got, the faster they die. With a Warrior/Druid OT you have the least Ghouls and you'll have Shamblers at sub 20% hp for a longer time, since the plague doesn't tick for as much. As a side note, the Shamblers will probably also be very close to stun DR by that time. The Pally is the superior OT for P1.

A Warrior pushing his class can definately compete, though.

Warrior OT puts Vigilance on the MT, which refreshes your taunt cooldown non-stop. You can infinitely chain-taunt if need be. Warrior tanks are just fine as OT's there.

[Deleted]

Warrior OT puts Vigilance on the MT, which refreshes your taunt cooldown non-stop. You can infinitely chain-taunt if need be. Warrior tanks are just fine as OT's there.

Then there's the threat transfer... In the environment I've been raiding, threat is a problem.

Putting Vigilance on your best Shadowmourne-wielder usually works just as well, though. And, yeah, Warriors are just fine.

[zox]

It may be a bug, but on the PTR DS only heals for a minimum of 10% of the max HP. (With talented DS)

[mikro]

It may be a bug, but on the PTR DS only heals for a minimum of 10% of the max HP. (With talented DS)

It's a bug. The damage increase of the talent is still applied however.

[hermansen]

I'm pretty sure you've got the Warriors Shield wall glyph wrong.

It's 4 mins cd + 60% dmg reduction without the glyph, while it's 2 mins + 40% dmg reduction while glyphed.

Just wanted to point that out.

EDIT: Uless it has been changed in the BETA (My bad if it is)

[zox]

It's a bug. The damage increase of the talent is still applied however.

I sure hope it is. My survivability went down quite a bit against those pesky elemental city raiders. And the rune strike change is missing from the ptr too last time I checked. I wanna spam eeeet!

[Saverem]

Warrior OT puts Vigilance on the MT, which refreshes your taunt cooldown non-stop. You can infinitely chain-taunt if need be. Warrior tanks are just fine as OT's there.

I'm pretty sure taunt is on a DR and after a certain amount the boss becomes immune to it for a few seconds. So you won't be able to just chain taunt.

Now iirc, arent dks a more cooldown based tanking? I am guessing they would take more passive damage than others for lack of shield, as mentioned, so they have more powerful cooldowns and reactive heals to help keep themselves up. While all other classes just take less damage passively, overall it should be roughly even between the classes over a 10 min fight.

Death Strike is what DKs have as a substitute for Block. I don't know if it's equal to block in terms of physical mitigation or not because I lack information on it such as how often DS is used in a rotation and the amount of absorb damage its shield applies (assuming comparable gear since it scales with Mastery). All I know is what it costs and how much it heals for. I also don't know the average Block % on a Warrior/Pally to compare DS to. What I can say for sure though is that DS is infinitely better than Block against spell damage because Block is completely useless against it where as DS can still heal the damage and give you an absorb shield from it.

[Caddo]

In live, the only good use (imo) for block is trash and heroics.. "oh look, I block a swing of... 1700.. err.. but the thing hits me for 25k..." so, like I said imo, I really don't think block "makes or breaks" a DK/Druid, unless you are counting some trash mobs which eh.. otherwise, I guess just throw the extra heal out since they are taking the blocks damage straight forward?

[Roose]

All tanks will be fine. Pick the one you like the most and go with it.

[Deleted]

In live, the only good use (imo) for block is trash and heroics.. "oh look, I block a swing of... 1700.. err.. but the thing hits me for 25k..." so, like I said imo, I really don't think block "makes or breaks" a DK/Druid, unless you are counting some trash mobs which eh.. otherwise, I guess just throw the extra heal out since they are taking the blocks damage straight forward?

1700 off a 25k swing is something like 7%, which is HUGE if you think about it.

[Garrim]

In live, the only good use (imo) for block is trash and heroics.. "oh look, I block a swing of... 1700.. err.. but the thing hits me for 25k..." so, like I said imo, I really don't think block "makes or breaks" a DK/Druid, unless you are counting some trash mobs which eh.. otherwise, I guess just throw the extra heal out since they are taking the blocks damage straight forward?

In Cata block will stop 30% of incoming damage from a physical source. Boss hits for 10k, you stop 3k. Get a critical block and you stop 6k of that 10k, that's nice.

---------- Post added 2010-10-07 at 05:20 PM ----------

I'm pretty sure taunt is on a DR and after a certain amount the boss becomes immune to it for a few seconds. So you won't be able to just chain taunt.





Death Strike is what DKs have as a substitute for Block. I don't know if it's equal to block in terms of physical mitigation or not because I lack information on it such as how often DS is used in a rotation and the amount of absorb damage its shield applies (assuming comparable gear since it scales with Mastery). All I know is what it costs and how much it heals for. I also don't know the average Block % on a Warrior/Pally to compare DS to. What I can say for sure though is that DS is infinitely better than Block against spell damage because Block is completely useless against it where as DS can still heal the damage and give you an absorb shield from it.

Chain taunt works with new adds in coming. You have 5 adds coming in to you, well you'll be able to taunt all of them in what 7.5 secs? Not including other AE ways to gain aggro, warriors can chain taunt multiple targets which other tanks cannot do nearly as easily. With Vigilence on another tank, they also take 5% less damage. That helps healers.

DK shields do not reduce magic damage. Someone said that earlier in the thread, it doesn't lower incoming spell damage on beta atm. So warriors are looking great actually.

[Saverem]

Let's list ALL POSSIBLE spell survival tools each tank will have. I'm skipping Druid because like I said earlier, I don't know much about them. If you play a Druid tank, feel free to add them in.

Warrior:
Defensive Stance - 10% less damage taken from all sources.
Shield Wall - 40% less damage for 12s, 2m cd OR 60% less damage for 12s, 4m cd
Frenzied Regen - 36% heal over 10s, 3m cd
Last Stand - 30% more HP for 20s, 3m cd
Impending Victory - Using Devestate on target below 20% health has a 50% chance to allow Warrior to use VR healing for 5%
Blood Craze - After taking ANY damage, 10% chance to heal 7.5% of your HP over 5s.

Paladin:
Sanctuary - 10% less damage taken from all sources.
GotAK - 60% less damage for 12s, 2m cd
Divine Protection - 20% less damage for 10s, 1m cd
Ardent Defender - 20% less damage for 10s instantly rez yourself with 15% HP if killing blow occurs, 3m cd
Word of Glory - Instant heal any over heals is added on as a shield, no cd, requires Holy Power.
Lay on Hands - Instantly heals all your HP, 10m cd

Death Knight:
Blood Presence - Reduce damage taken from all sources by 8%
Bladed Barrier - When Blood Runes are on cd, all damage taken reduced by 6% for 10s
Icebound Fortitude - 60% less damage and immunity to stuns for 12s, 2mcd
Bone Shield - Reduces all damage taken by 20%, duration varies, 1m cd
Death Strike - Heals for 15% of total HP or 30% of all damage received in past 5s, adds absorb shield for 50% of heal + mastery (shield doesn't reduce spell damage), cd based on resources.
Rune Tap - Heals for 15% of total HP, 30s cd
Vampiric Blood - Increases HP by 15% and healing received by 25% for 10s, 1m cd
Anti-Magic Shield - Reduces 75% of spell damage (up to a maximum of 50% of the DK's health) and preventing application of harmful magical effects for 5s, 45s cd
Death Pact - Sacrificed ghoul pet to restore 40% of DK's HP, 2m cd
Will of the Necropolis - Reduces all damage taken by 20% once below 35% HP and instantly refreshes Rune Tap and a Blood Rune to use it, 45s internal cd
Blood Parasite - 15% chance per melee swing to summon a Bloodworm which attacks a target until it explodes healing allies.



I think it's safe to say DKs have a bit of an edge on there.


Edit: I did not include Spell Reflect for Warriors because that ability doesn't work on bosses and I've never heard of a raid choosing their tank based on how well they can tank trash. It's all about how well they do on bosses, trash is meaningless.

Also, take note on the cooldowns of each ability. Warriors have lots of 3m cooldowns where as DKs have lots of 1-2m cooldowns.

[voidillusion]

My last stand is 1 less min cd, and my shield wall is on 2 if i want, just saying...

Also, saying a warrior is bad against casters because we only have shield reflect that usually doesnt work vs bosses and not even mentioning shield wall is lack of knowledge.

[Antenorra]

Let's list ALL POSSIBLE spell survival tools each tank will have. I'm skipping Druid because like I said earlier, I don't know much about them. If you play a Druid tank, feel free to add them in.

Druids:
Bear Form - 120% armor increase, 25% stam (talented to 153% armor increase (Thick Hide), 35% stam (Heart of the Wild)
Survival Instincts - damage reduced by 60%. 12s duration, 5m CD
Enraged Regeneration - 30% total health increase, heals to 30% if below, heals for 0.3% total health/rage. 20s duration, 3m CD
Savage Defense - on crit, 50% change to block [75% of AP] damage. increases % per mastery.
Leader of the Pack - heals for 8% total health per crit.
Barkskin - reduces all damage by 20% (includes spell).

Yea, Druids get the short end on abilities but we still have the highest innate dodge, health, and armor.

[Lucky_]

I'm pretty sure taunt is on a DR and after a certain amount the boss becomes immune to it for a few seconds. So you won't be able to just chain taunt.

You're not taunting the boss. You're taunting the ghouls. This shows that you have zero experience with tanking current endgame.

Death Strike is what DKs have as a substitute for Block. I don't know if it's equal to block in terms of physical mitigation or not because I lack information on it such as how often DS is used in a rotation and the amount of absorb damage its shield applies (assuming comparable gear since it scales with Mastery). All I know is what it costs and how much it heals for. I also don't know the average Block % on a Warrior/Pally to compare DS to. What I can say for sure though is that DS is infinitely better than Block against spell damage because Block is completely useless against it where as DS can still heal the damage and give you an absorb shield from it.

All of above is meaningless. DS shield is a follow-up to damage, after the damage has already been taken. Unlike blocking with shield it won't help you if you have been killed due to too much incoming damage in a burst. It's merely a tool to not be a mana-sponge tank, which is going to matter a whole lot more in cata. Finally essentially no bosses do consistent powerful spell damage on tank. All bosses but a couple of gimmick ones do consistent physical blockable damage.


At this point, anyone with half a clue will tell you that DK tanks are the weakest both in 5 mans and in raids. The problem isn't limited to them being the biggest mana sponge and most bursty tank, but also to their utter lack of usable-on-demand emergency buttons such as AoE taunt and shockwave and finally their new convoulted resource system which tends to leave them starved and unable to generate threat when pull doesn't go according to plan.