Mitigation of all 4 tanks... Looks like DKs come out ahead?

[Saverem]

You're not taunting the boss. You're taunting the ghouls. This shows that you have zero experience with tanking current endgame.




All of above is meaningless. DS shield is a follow-up to damage, after the damage has already been taken. Unlike blocking with shield it won't help you if you have been killed due to too much incoming damage in a burst. It's merely a tool to not be a mana-sponge tank, which is going to matter a whole lot more in cata. Finally essentially no bosses do consistent powerful spell damage on tank. All bosses but a couple of gimmick ones do consistent physical blockable damage.


At this point, anyone with half a clue will tell you that DK tanks are the weakest both in 5 mans and in raids. The problem isn't limited to them being the biggest mana sponge and most bursty tank, but also to their utter lack of usable-on-demand emergency buttons such as AoE taunt and shockwave and finally their new convoulted resource system which tends to leave them starved and unable to generate threat when pull doesn't go according to plan.

All of this... All of it. Makes no sense. Please try making sense next time you post something.

[Steeda_]

All of this... All of it. Makes no sense. Please try making sense next time you post something.

In response to your comment - "I'm pretty sure taunt is on a DR and after a certain amount the boss becomes immune to it for a few seconds. So you won't be able to just chain taunt." it makes absolutely perfect sense. Have you ever OT'd as a warrior on LK? Ever? Why would you have the slightest fraction of a concern about the boss becoming immune to taunt? You are OT'ing. You are chain-taunting the ghouls that spawn. It makes absolutely perfect sense. In fact it's pretty unmistakable to everyone in the thread except you, but I guess we'll all try to make some other form of sense when we're posting in order for you to understand it.

[darkwarrior42]

Let's list ALL POSSIBLE spell survival tools each tank will have. I'm skipping Druid because like I said earlier, I don't know much about them. If you play a Druid tank, feel free to add them in.

I think it's safe to say DKs have a bit of an edge on there.
Edit: I did not include Spell Reflect for Warriors because that ability doesn't work on bosses and I've never heard of a raid choosing their tank based on how well they can tank trash. It's all about how well they do on bosses, trash is meaningless.

Also, take note on the cooldowns of each ability. Warriors have lots of 3m cooldowns where as DKs have lots of 1-2m cooldowns.

Of course you think it's safe to say DKs have an edge. You came into this thread already convinced you were right, and dont' really seem to be considering that the tanks have different stats to begin with which means that their cooldowns don't need to be identical... or that DKs might have lower inherent tanking stats (mostly because of the lack of shield), *necessitating* stronger cooldowns. It is of course obvious that Blood DKs have more self-healing mechanics.... but that's a bit like saying "Fire mages use a lot of fire spells".

You make a rather specific point of including Icebound Fortitudes immunity to stun mechanic, as if trying to point out that this makes it stronger than abilities such as shield wall or GotAK. However, you fail to include abilities possessed by other tanking classes that allow them to get out of certain similar mechanics, such as a warrior hitting Berserker Rage to break a fear effect. Also, in your last list, you fail to include Shield Block for warriors, which translates to as much as 30% damage reduction against physical attacks for 10s on a 40s cooldown (talented), and that's not including the chance of a critical block.

In short, while I see the point you're going for.... I think in the end, all that's been really said is "Blood Death Knights are good at self-healing, and Death Knights have more self-healing+mitigation cooldowns than other tanks." Given that they don't have shields (which will far better against raid bosses in Cata than they currently are), and given that DK armor/health doesn't seem to be significantly higher than warrior/paladin health.... this is exactly what I would expect to see.

[Deleted]

All of this... All of it. Makes no sense. Please try making sense next time you post something.

I'm not going to touch the taunt subject, since I think Steeda already made it perfectly clear. On the subject of DS, I think you are giving the ability slight bit too much credit. Yes, even on live servers atm DS is an amazing ability when it hits the mark but here's the rub; DS only matters when it hits while you are sub 100% HP. This is quite significant because especially atm, most DSs are just over-healing. This should change a bit in Cata ofc, but more importantly, you can only apply it after the boss has hit you. If the DK is dead from the hit, won't matter and that's why actual mitigation like shield block is better; because it is applied before the hit.

I know what you're trying to say in this thread but I think you're making too simplified conclusions, when in practice things are never quite as simply as they seem in theory.

[Deleted]

Bash me if you...can! since I didn't take a closer look on the other tanks on beta xept my warrior.On live I have dk and druid tank too but I find the "don't have shield"-argument little flawed.Sure, even blizz used it but while that is true blizz also agreed that blocking quite doesn't cut it.Druid and DK tanks tend to have more health and armor despite the fact they can't use shields.I believe this is the case even on beta.Blocking got a nice buff so far but it doesn't really live up to its expectations in 5man heroic setting.By my own beta experience and healer 'live feedback' it would seem warrior is sort of tank who might save your mana on the long run since all the blocked dmg from multiple mobs is something you won't need to waste mana to heal up but they also take significant damage spikes that might lead to "tank being globaled".Not that I ever got killed in one global but this is the scenario where Im tanking say 3-4 mobs who all happen to hit me at same time twice in a row and healer being unable to top me off after, even if I pop cd.However Im not too concerned about warrior tanks as of now, with proper use of cooldowns and shockwave you can tank heroics just fine.Altho I guess they could use little polishing still.

The reason other tanks and especially DK seem to be so good as of now is the fact DK is heavily cooldown based tank.The mobs and even bosses in heroics have relatively small health pool(or avg dps on beta is pretty high Oo) and because of that the fights typically won't last so long, this gives other classes an edge when they have those 1min CD abilities that have really high uptime especially while clearing trash and when those aren't ready you can pop one of the longer cd's.

However its always been the case theres differences with how tanks scale with gear and how they manage against multiple mobs.The real test will be ahead in raids, where I'd believe warriors might turn out to be teh shizz (again) since blocking could potentially save a lot of healers mana on the long run.However if it turns out warriors, even the most experienced ones drop like flies in raid setting then I guess they need to take another look at block mechanic.

[voidillusion]

All of this... All of it. Makes no sense. Please try making sense next time you post something.

What makes no sense? The part where he showed you how a warrior OTs on LK? Or the part where he explained DS will be no help to you if you take lethal damage?

I'm curious.

[Saverem]

About the taunt thing, I didn't read the quote the thread was in response to and didn't realize he was talking about the LK, my bad.

Of course you think it's safe to say DKs have an edge. You came into this thread already convinced you were right, and dont' really seem to be considering that the tanks have different stats to begin with which means that their cooldowns don't need to be identical... or that DKs might have lower inherent tanking stats (mostly because of the lack of shield), *necessitating* stronger cooldowns. It is of course obvious that Blood DKs have more self-healing mechanics.... but that's a bit like saying "Fire mages use a lot of fire spells".

As a Biologist, I try never to walk into something with my mind made up already. I didn't make this thread because I am convinced, if I were, I wouldn't have bothered listing the abilities and putting it up for debate. I listed the abilities in order for you to take a look at them and judge for yourselves. I don't understand why having a shield means Warriors/Pallies are inherently better tanks. What is it about the shield that gives them such an edge? Is it the extra armor? Nope, DKs get that through Blood presence. Is it the extra defensive stats? Nope, DKs get that through runeforging + 2hers have better stats than 1hers. All that is left is the block ability, and DK's version of block comes from their DS in Cata.

You make a rather specific point of including Icebound Fortitudes immunity to stun mechanic, as if trying to point out that this makes it stronger than abilities such as shield wall or GotAK. However, you fail to include abilities possessed by other tanking classes that allow them to get out of certain similar mechanics, such as a warrior hitting Berserker Rage to break a fear effect. Also, in your last list, you fail to include Shield Block for warriors, which translates to as much as 30% damage reduction against physical attacks for 10s on a 40s cooldown (talented), and that's not including the chance of a critical block.

I am referring the to ability itself, it provides more defense and stun immunity for the same cooldown. I know Warriors have other abilities that provide other buffs. Blood DKs can also get Licheborn if they choose that also breaks fear, but that's besides the point, I was talking about mitigation not utility.

Also, I included Shield Block on my first post, I didn't include it on my last one because that list was for abilities that mitigated spell damage.

In short, while I see the point you're going for.... I think in the end, all that's been really said is "Blood Death Knights are good at self-healing, and Death Knights have more self-healing+mitigation cooldowns than other tanks." Given that they don't have shields (which will far better against raid bosses in Cata than they currently are), and given that DK armor/health doesn't seem to be significantly higher than warrior/paladin health.... this is exactly what I would expect to see.

DS I assume will be an ability that the DK will want to use every 5s, yes it works reactively, but will there ever be a boss ability that will kill the tank in 5s simply because they did not have block? If so, then Druids will be in just as much trouble.

I guess the question we have to ask ourselves is: Is healing 15% of your total hp or 30% of all damage taken for the last 5s and applying a physical absorption for at least half of that amount every 5s that much worse than having an x% chance to have a physical attack reduced by 30% to warrant the much better mitigation cooldowns?

I can't answer that for sure at this point and none of you can either. But you can't deny the fact that the amazing amount of spell mitigation DKs get to compensate does leave the other 3 tanks in the dust.

[Saverem]

What makes no sense? The part where he showed you how a warrior OTs on LK? Or the part where he explained DS will be no help to you if you take lethal damage?

I'm curious.

You know what else will be of no help if you take lethal damage? Block.

Sooo... What of it? Are you implying that DKs could die in a 5s span because they don't have block? I don't understand where you're going with this statement.

---------- Post added 2010-10-08 at 02:44 PM ----------

Each tank mitigates damage in different ways with Cataclysm. Warriors and Paladins get Block as their main source, Druids get Dodge, DK's get Parry. Each tank's CD's vary but this is another way in which they want to provide some level of distinction between each.

I know, that is the GENERAL gist of it. I am trying to go beyond generalizations and into more of the actual functions of each ability.

Also, DKs are getting Death Strike as the alternative for block, not parry (and Druids have that shield proc from crit ability, forgot name). Don't know if they still have a higher parry chance in Cata, but if they do, makes it all the better to support my case.

[voidillusion]

I'll explain, imagine you're doing Sindra HC 25. Sometimes she hits you like 3x 35k hits in a very short period of time (2 secs) and this might happen often cause she can cleave right after she hits, and she also parry hastes. A block on 1 of those hits making it partial damage can save you, a DS life gain most likely won't.

This is the point, and it shouldn't even need explaning.

[Thalruin]

Shield block for 30% reduced damage on a 30 second timer (With crit blocks thrown in for 60%) is the best minor cooldown for physical attacks. Like...at all. Because you still dodge, parry, get missed as well as block. And it's after damage mitigation from armor and defensive stance. I love the new shield block mechanic for bosses. (Though I will miss being virtually immune to physical damage soloing old world.)

[Saverem]

I'll explain, imagine you're doing Sindra HC 25. Sometimes she hits you like 3x 35k hits in a very short period of time (2 secs) and this might happen often cause she can cleave right after she hits, and she also parry hastes. A block on 1 of those hits making it partial damage can save you, a DS life gain most likely won't.

This is the point, and it shouldn't even need explaning.

Funny you should mention Sindy... DKs are the best tanks for her because of their superior spell mitigation and the fact that DS works on spell damage as well as physical. But let's pretend for the sake of argument that all tanks are equal on her.

You are talking about random events, the incoming burst damage is unpredictable and the chance you have to block is also unpredictable. You are also using WotLK fight mechanics on a Cata tank. This is not going to happen in Cata, Blizzard stated that they aren't going to make boss mechanics bursty like they are in WotLK, the healers will have time to heal the tanks but they will have to choose their heals carefully if they don't want to go OOM half way through the fight. This means that DKs (and other tanks) won't be getting unlucky strings of unpredictable and fatal bursts unless they are undergeared. There will, of course, still be burst mechanics, but they will be an ability that you can see coming and prepare for, this is where defensive cooldowns come in.

[Deleted]

DS I assume will be an ability that the DK will want to use every 5s, yes it works reactively, but will there ever be a boss ability that will kill the tank in 5s simply because they did not have block? If so, then Druids will be in just as much trouble.

Your argument is invalid. Did u check the runechanges for dks in cata? Deathstrike every 5 seconds works on live, raid tanking on PTR looks different however. Ull lucky to use deathstrike every 20th sec when u bring cooldowns, dmg debuffs and refreshing diseases into the calculation.
The new rune change is a major flaw for tanking, its made for dps dks and so far blizzard is throwing in bandaid fixes for blood tanking every now and then.

[Saverem]

Your argument is invalid. Did u check the runechanges for dks in cata? Deathstrike every 5 seconds works on live, raid tanking on PTR looks different however. Ull lucky to use deathstrike every 20th sec when u bring cooldowns, dmg debuffs and refreshing diseases into the calculation.
The new rune change is a major flaw for tanking, its made for dps dks and so far blizzard is throwing in bandaid fixes for blood tanking every now and then.

Rune Strike in Blood Presence + Runic Empowerment + Blood Tap

Check them out.

Also haste effects rune recharge times, I know tanks most likely won't be gearing for it, but you still get at least 10% from raid buffs.

[Deleted]

I can say that u dont have the slightest idea of what u r talkin about when it comes to deathstrikin in 4.0
Instead of bashing out retarded comments, hoping to change the communitys view on dks being OP, maybe u should try tank ICC on ptr and show us these 5 sec spam deathstrikes. They dont exists!

[Mayden]

When your soloing old-world content, all the selfhealing of a DK can look overpowered.

When your in a 25-man raid the selfhealing will be neglible in relative numbers.

Talents like Divinity and Field Dressing (increases all healing effect on you by 6%) will tip the scale in favour of Paladins and Warriors in 25-man raids.


Side note to OP: as it looks now a DK's Blood Shield only absorbs physical not magical damage (see EJ site).

[Deleted]

Great, 1st they whine dks are too sqhishy and now they whine they are too tough.

[eyeofskadi]

You know what else will be of no help if you take lethal damage? Block.

Sooo... What of it? Are you implying that DKs could die in a 5s span because they don't have block? I don't understand where you're going with this statement.

Have you tanked H HOR with a 50k hp DK? and still die (with IBF) under 0.18s? The 'quickest' death my paly ever had in there was 2+ secs (wonder wat the healer was doing)...

Originally Posted by Synthaxx
Each tank mitigates damage in different ways with Cataclysm. Warriors and Paladins get Block as their main source, Druids get Dodge, DK's get Parry. Each tank's CD's vary but this is another way in which they want to provide some level of distinction between each.

I know, that is the GENERAL gist of it. I am trying to go beyond generalizations and into more of the actual functions of each ability.

Also, DKs are getting Death Strike as the alternative for block, not parry (and Druids have that shield proc from crit ability, forgot name). Don't know if they still have a higher parry chance in Cata, but if they do, makes it all the better to support my case.

Yea i dont know how to quote another quote haha. Anyway, i've pointed out quite a few times (on wowhead.com) that in similar gear (251s + 264s) in WOTLK, Palies and Wars have almost as much (and sometimes more) parry than DKs. I hope that changes in Cata, especially since Forced Deflection and Parry are affected by STR.

As for your '5s DS spam', due to the lack of haste (which affects Rune regeneration which is MUCH slower in Cata than Wotlk), DKs cant really 'spam' anything except RS (assuming you have the Scent of Blood and maybe Butchery).

Also, it saddens me that you are a biologist... without sufficient knowledge (Meaning of Mitigation, EH, Difference of Roles and Playstyles of the DIFFERENT tanks, Mechanics of skills, stats etc), creativity (to see how the skills and mechanics play out in encounters and not just on paper, especially if your paper is SEVERELY missing other quantifiers) or tests (at the very least show how a DK is so vastly superior with a tested encounter, which we can use to educate you how 'right' you are).

Try googling/wiki (like any KID, much less UNDERGRAD does) more before posting a response to save yourself from further embarassment.

---------- Post added 2010-10-09 at 12:26 AM ----------

Funny you should mention Sindy... DKs are the best tanks for her because of their superior spell mitigation and the fact that DS works on spell damage as well as physical. But let's pretend for the sake of argument that all tanks are equal on her.

You are talking about random events, the incoming burst damage is unpredictable and the chance you have to block is also unpredictable. You are also using WotLK fight mechanics on a Cata tank. This is not going to happen in Cata, Blizzard stated that they aren't going to make boss mechanics bursty like they are in WotLK, the healers will have time to heal the tanks but they will have to choose their heals carefully if they don't want to go OOM half way through the fight. This means that DKs (and other tanks) won't be getting unlucky strings of unpredictable and fatal bursts unless they are undergeared. There will, of course, still be burst mechanics, but they will be an ability that you can see coming and prepare for, this is where defensive cooldowns come in.

Rofl this seriously shows you truly are a paper 'biologist'. Seriously lack of information on your part. Anyone who watches (even if only a few) Cata Heroic vids can tell you: "Hey! Shut ya trap and you'll SOUND so much smarter!"

You are talking about random events, the incoming burst damage is unpredictable and the chance you have to block is also unpredictable.

Sounds so much like

You know what else will be of no help if you take lethal damage? Block.

I totally enjoy reading you bash others for using your own (which was SURPRISINGLY LOGICAL from a pessimistic point of view) argument.

Now, a biologist should understand the meaning of lethal. I hope. Nothing in the world (maybe besides lag) can save you from FINGER OF DOOM (TBC: Hyjal) and a few other skills in Cata (Bubbles may or may not work depending on the skill used).

[Saverem]

Have you tanked H HOR with a 50k hp DK? and still die (with IBF) under 0.18s? The 'quickest' death my paly ever had in there was 2+ secs (wonder wat the healer was doing)...

Again there you guys go using WotLK examples. And to answer your question, yes, yes I have tanked H HOR and I have died there as well! I have an 80 Blood DK tank on live who has tanked every boss in ICC except LK. DS on live is NOT THE SAME AS DS in Cata just as Block on live is not the same. I agree that it is much easier for a block class to tank 5 man heroics at the moment because of the way block works on live.

However, if you know anything about Cata, you'd also know that Block and DS don't work the same way as they do on live making your point invalid to this topic.

DS will heal for 30% of all damage received for last 5s in Cata making tanking multiple hard hitting mobs easier for the DK. Simple math for you: More mobs attacking you = more damage received = greater heal when you DS. Conversely, block will no longer mitigate 100% of incoming damage like it's doing on live in 5m heroics making tanking for block users in Cata a bit more challenging.

Yea i dont know how to quote another quote haha. Anyway, i've pointed out quite a few times (on wowhead.com) that in similar gear (251s + 264s) in WOTLK, Palies and Wars have almost as much (and sometimes more) parry than DKs. I hope that changes in Cata, especially since Forced Deflection and Parry are affected by STR.

As for your '5s DS spam', due to the lack of haste (which affects Rune regeneration which is MUCH slower in Cata than Wotlk), DKs cant really 'spam' anything except RS (assuming you have the Scent of Blood and maybe Butchery).

I never said they will be spamming anything anywhere. I said they will probably be able to get off a DS every 5s with the way rune procs work and what not. Also, Blood/Frost plagues last for 30s now on top of having Outbreak, giving DKs plenty of time to have a steady rotation in between.

Also, it saddens me that you are a biologist... without sufficient knowledge (Meaning of Mitigation, EH, Difference of Roles and Playstyles of the DIFFERENT tanks, Mechanics of skills, stats etc), creativity (to see how the skills and mechanics play out in encounters and not just on paper, especially if your paper is SEVERELY missing other quantifiers) or tests (at the very least show how a DK is so vastly superior with a tested encounter, which we can use to educate you how 'right' you are).

Try googling/wiki (like any KID, much less UNDERGRAD does) more before posting a response to save yourself from further embarassment.

It saddens me that you take gaming posts you read online personally and resort to attacks on someone you don't know... KIDDING! It doesn't sadden me the tiniest bit, because I couldn't care less.

[Deleted]

Funny you should mention Sindy... DKs are the best tanks for her because of their superior spell mitigation and the fact that DS works on spell damage as well as physical. But let's pretend for the sake of argument that all tanks are equal on her.

I fail to see how this relates to this discussion in anyway. We are talking about physical damage here, not spell damage. Also, for your information, the only reason DKs are the best tanks for Sindy is AMS, NOT death strike.

You are talking about random events, the incoming burst damage is unpredictable and the chance you have to block is also unpredictable. You are also using WotLK fight mechanics on a Cata tank. This is not going to happen in Cata, Blizzard stated that they aren't going to make boss mechanics bursty like they are in WotLK, the healers will have time to heal the tanks but they will have to choose their heals carefully if they don't want to go OOM half way through the fight.

So are you if your sole argument for DK's superiority is death strike. It isn't a magic wand you can wave whenever you take damage. You have other purposes for your resources than just spamming DS, which is the image you're projecting atm; that a tank will just sit there and spam DS. And yes, we all know what Blizzard has promised us but I for one won't believe it until I see it. It's exactly what they promised for ICC and having been watching videos of cata heroics there is a huge about burst damage that goes on.

The reason we are comparing DS to live servers is because we really don't have any data from Cata available but it isn't without merit. Many situations in Wrath right now will be comparable to situations on Cata.

Your point on block being unpredictable is valid, but so is DS. You will not be able to react to every single hit you take with a DS and that is assuming you live through the damage in the first place. As it has been pointed out several times now; DS is a reactive ability, one that suffers from reflex lag, where as block is passive and most importantly, proactive. It is applied before the damage is deducted from your HP. Ofc, you can burn CDs but that is not always an option, like Festergut HM or Sindy HM, in both cases which you must save your CDs for very specific situation, none which include boss cleaves and white hits.

All and all, I think the main flaw here is that you are essentially comparing two abilities which completely opposite mechanics. You are mixing concepts such as mitigation and healing, reactive and proactive, and just generalizing facts to suit your own opinion.

[Saverem]

So are you if your sole argument for DK's superiority is death strike.

It isn't, go read my post.


The only reason why I'm talking so much about DS is because everyone is saying the reason why DKs need more/better cooldowns is because they don't have a block. My argument is that DS is comparable to block and thus they have superior tanking abilities because of their much better tanking cooldowns.