Mitigation of all 4 tanks... Looks like DKs come out ahead?

[Deleted]

It isn't, go read my post.

I did and it's an epic fail. But it's fine, I'm really done with this ridiculous discussion anyway. All you're doing is just spouting nonsense; what you know, you spam, what you don't know you make up and the rest you just ignore.

[Saverem]

I did and it's an epic fail. But it's fine, I'm really done with this ridiculous discussion anyway. All you're doing is just spouting nonsense; what you know, you spam, what you don't know you make up and the rest you just ignore.

You will be missed. Later.

[eyeofskadi]

As a Biologist, I try never to walk into something with my mind made up already.

Seeing as you

didn't read the quote the thread

I'm quite sure you are lying.

You were

listing the

wrong

abilities and putting it up for debate.

I don't understand why having a shield means Warriors/Pallies are inherently better tanks.

I heard rolling a healer helps clears these thoughts, oh wait, you cant even tank, what hopes have you to heal? rofl

Blood DKs can also get Licheborn if they choose that also breaks fear

Erm, Lichborn is a Tier 3 FROST talent... EVEN if the DK were DW frost tank (which has highest TPS in Wotlk amongst the 3 'tank' specs)... Which encounters do you need erm anti-fear? Ony? (/waves for a Priest/Shaman

I was talking about mitigation not utility.

All listed abilities ARE Damage Reduction aka CDs. Not mitigation rofl

Oh and to help you in your search for more knowledge, Druids have a Resto Tier 2 Talent called Perserverance. I cant let a blind (mentally) idiot fumble in the dark (of a very well-lit library called THE INTERNET) now can i?

[Varisk]

Umm last time I Checked last stand increases your health by 30% and bosses damage still hits the same soo its sort of like a mitigation cd because you are taking less damage. Kthxbai.

P.S. - sorry for my bad typing I am doing this by phone.

No you are not taking less damage because although you have more health for a short period of time, the damage is still scaled relative to the amount of health you have when Last Stand comes off. Let's say you have 100k hp, and get hit for 30k, you LS for 130k hp. and you get hit twice for 30k, you are now at 70k hp, when last stand comes off its going to now reduce that remaining hp by 30%. (49k)

[eyeofskadi]

lol you know what, i give up educating an 'intellectual' idiot who actually CHOSE to be one (but of course is not conscious of his choice, seeing as he actually runs on instinct and imagination).

And is probably a little kid (mentally if not physically. Wonder if he can be so 'Complex' that we need eigenfunctions to decipher what he is actually saying. If you dont understand what i meant, GOOGLE them) to boot.

[Sulika]

DKs: Bone Shield - 20% less damage until 3 charges of Bone Shield are spent (time varies), 1m cd.
Warriors: Shield Block - increases chance to block by 100% for 10s, 30s cd.

Warriors get the small end of the stick here. The better geared the Warrior, the less effective this ability will become for them. (Bad geared Warrior might have 25% chance to block making this ability 75% more effective where as a better geared Warrior may have 35% chance to block making this ability only 55% effective. Also, Warrior's cooldown is the only ability there that doesn't work on spell damage.

So the warrior gets:
An average of 40% damage reduction (when you factor in critical blocks), for 10 seconds, with no resource costs, that also boosts threat, on a 30 second cooldown.

The DK gets:
20% damage recuction, for at most 3 hits, probably lasts about 6 seconds, costing an unholy rune (i.e. you lose a Death Strike), on a 60 second cooldown.

The warrior ability lasts twice as long, absorbs twice as much damage, can be used twice as often, costs no resources and also includes a threat boost. How exactly did you manage to portray this as if the warrior ability was inferior to the DK one?

[Azyoulike]

This thread was launched on a Wrath-based viewpoint, where mitigation & EH are the keystones of tank survival, and avoidance barely matters. In wrath healers had effectively unlimited mana, so tank deaths for the most part only occurred when incoming damage was equivalent to tank HP pools.

Cata is a completely different bucket of monkeys. Tanks will be dying due to healers going oom, and so those OMG moments that were so common in wrath will be fewer in Cata. Instead the key will be making sure that all tanks require roughly the same intensity of healing over the entire encounter.

Of course this is assuming that encounter design in the raids actually matches what GC has been saying so far, but we'll find that out soon enough.

[deneweth]

This thread is kinda pointless since we will undoubtedly see number adjustments between the upcoming end of the beta, and retail level 85 end game. There's no need to debate theory craft without numbers and base opinions on feelings gathered from looking at parts of the whole picture.

All tanks are going to have the tools available to them to survive massive damage abilities. Having an extra 2 seconds of the cooldown after the dragon's breath or reducing it by 10% more isn't going to make or break a fight. Now that healer mana is an issue you have to look at the total picture which will include mitigation, cooldowns, avoidance and max HP. Bliz will be trying to balance the tanks so that none of them will be the best, and if too many serious progression guilds are using one class they will balance. Whatever small differences between tanks makes it to live will have a much smaller impact on healer mana than the other 9 people in your raid not standing in the fire.

[Saverem]

Seeing as you I'm quite sure you are lying.

You were wrong


I heard rolling a healer helps clears these thoughts, oh wait, you cant even tank, what hopes have you to heal? rofl


Erm, Lichborn is a Tier 3 FROST talent... EVEN if the DK were DW frost tank (which has highest TPS in Wotlk amongst the 3 'tank' specs)... Which encounters do you need erm anti-fear? Ony? (/waves for a Priest/Shaman



All listed abilities ARE Damage Reduction aka CDs. Not mitigation rofl

Oh and to help you in your search for more knowledge, Druids have a Resto Tier 2 Talent called Perserverance. I cant let a blind (mentally) idiot fumble in the dark (of a very well-lit library called THE INTERNET) now can i?

What's was the point of this post? Quoting snippets of someone else's previous posts out of context for no apparent reason doesn't make you look any more 'intellectual' either.

Also Lichborne is tier 2, get your facts straight before posting.

---------- Post added 2010-10-08 at 05:52 PM ----------

So the warrior gets:
An average of 40% damage reduction (when you factor in critical blocks), for 10 seconds, with no resource costs, that also boosts threat, on a 30 second cooldown.

The DK gets:
20% damage recuction, for at most 3 hits, probably lasts about 6 seconds, costing an unholy rune (i.e. you lose a Death Strike), on a 60 second cooldown.

The warrior ability lasts twice as long, absorbs twice as much damage, can be used twice as often, costs no resources and also includes a threat boost. How exactly did you manage to portray this as if the warrior ability was inferior to the DK one?

What?

---------- Post added 2010-10-08 at 05:53 PM ----------

This thread was launched on a Wrath-based viewpoint, where mitigation & EH are the keystones of tank survival, and avoidance barely matters.

Nope, it was from a Cata view point.

[Thalruin]

What?

He's saying Shield Block trumps bone...or I guess it'll be blood barrier.

[omgooses]

bears are best cus they are furry and cuddly....enough said, plus, why be satisfied with say 150k health as a dk/pally/warrior tank when you can have 200k as a BEAR RAWRRRR!!!!


*Sarcasm of course*

[Garrim]

From reading more of these posts and looking at talent trees a bit closer and abilities, warriors seem very equal. I think you feel like you need more abilities or stronger abilities OP and I think warriors appear to be in a great spot.

[Beace]

Any comparison like this is bound to fail at the basics. Different tanks do things differently, you can just list abilities and try to compare them to each other.

Or well, you can, but it's useless.

[Saverem]

Any comparison like this is bound to fail at the basics. Different tanks do things differently, you can just list abilities and try to compare them to each other.

Or well, you can, but it's useless.

You might be right, we'll just have to wait a few months and see.

[Deleted]

Blood DKs can also get Licheborn

This has to be the worst warrior QQ (they took our jeeeewbs, still stuck in S5) thread ive ever read.
Your class does somehow (magically) attract most of the clueless nerdraging people in this game
How about those 5 sec OP deathstrikes, be sure to fraps it on the ptr in a raiding enviroment.

Move on people, save yourself some time, nothing to see here...

[Lucky_]

Funny you should mention Sindy... DKs are the best tanks for her because of their superior spell mitigation and the fact that DS works on spell damage as well as physical. But let's pretend for the sake of argument that all tanks are equal on her.

And I'm once again forced to conclude that you are utterly and completely clueless in end game tanking. The single best class to tank Sindragosa is a druid, due to his superior EH, ability to shift out of snares and ability to charge back from the block to boss in P2 after stack reset, which is the most critical part of the encounter for tanks by far. Warriors are on par, and really good warriors are arguably better as they can intervene, drop stacks and charge back faster then anyone, but they need to be fed freedoms to get out of snare for most effective positioning.

DK is, at best, third due to his ability to AMS the nova - of course warriors and druid simply back off and charge back in, taking no damage at all, and not moving the boss. Paladins are worst off having to end up moving sindra on novas, causing potential DPS and healing issues and DKs can either have her moved while avoiding nova or AMS the nova taking some damage.


Please, stop arguing against overwhelming facts. The old saying "it's better to be silent and let others think you're an idiot then open your mouth and remove all doubt" fits you to a tee.

[The Polarbear]

DKs cant block keep that in mind

[Deleted]

Well, Ive read every page of this and heres what I reckon:

Wars are along with Druids the most reactive tanks. Charge and Challenging Shout/Roar ftw and Paladins get Righteous Defence.
The reason I mention all of these multiple taunt and ground covering abilities is because Dks dont have any of these. Death grip will not put a Dk tank in the middle of 2-3 angry mobs that just ran over to say hello to the healer.

How does this effect the many, many options dks have on Mitigation/EH?

Well, Dks are so concerned with holding aggro using a tried and tested (and unforgiving) Tps rotation that they need a huge selection of "OhShizz" buttons that will(hopefully) not effect their rotation.

None of these abilities can be kept up indefinitely and all of them cost either Runic Power or Runes themselves(valuable Resources).

I think this should explain the sheer number of abilities Dk tanks possess to mitigate damage while holding aggro because when things go bad for a Dk tank, things go very, very badly and very quickly.

What is also going un-noticed is the setup required to knock out a DS at all.
Dropping D&D, applying diseases and spreading them are all required before a DS is landed and then this must be repeated to keep the DnD and diseases applied(again Resources).

So yes, Dks have a lot of mitigation abilites, more then the other 3 tanking classes.
But most of them are essentially unusable at certain points in the Tps rotation.

Ive lvled a prot war and a Dk meatshield (and the other two tanking classes too) and to be able to Shield Block every 30s for no resources or Holy Shield with almost 100% upkeep time for minimal mana sounds a lot better then choosing which "OhShizz" to use when.
And all this on top of the passive shield block that Dks must work so hard to maintain through DS and Blade Barrier that shield classes dont even have to worry about.