PTR Thorns Too High, Screens Inside.

[Swizzle]

Your stupid comparison aside swizzle, if you look at my screens its not just auto attack (hence you know...the hemo de-buff in some of them) and it still drains his hp. As far as recup goes and self healing, sure he could of used those (see my above post for actual numbers which you clearly didnt read) he could of also used his cd's but the whole purpose of my tests was to show just how much damage thorns can do with no icd of any kind against fast hitting classes.

Secondly, no the game isn't balanced around 1v1, however moonkin can currently cast thorns on others. So picture this scenario, 2v2 arena moonkin+healer vs rogue/feral+healer. The moonkins healer gets opened up on so to deter the rogue from attacking his healer, the moonkin casts thorns on the healer making it so that whenever said rogue attacks the healer (with ANY attack) he takes massive damage.

Now I bet your thinking, well thats ok, it acts almost like a HoP in a sense (a defensive cd you can hand out). The only thing is, it has a 25 second cd (with the glyph) and a 20 second duration, thus it has a VERY high uptime. Not to mention the fact that if its design intention is a defensive cd of sorts, then why must it also act as an offensive cd too? given how much damage it can currently do.

Lastly, this thread was created to point out and show what thorns is currently doing, there was no real negativity in this thread until you created some.

All I see is one hemo debuff and crippling poison, with no actual display of the rogues damage. Show me a rogue using his tools and then I'll concede that the ability is slightly over tuned. Secondly...why make this thread showing a 1v1 if you know it's not balanced around 1v1? I don't play a rogue or druid, so I have no personal stake in this, I just find this whole debate of PTR damage being used to call something OP in a 1v1 setting....retarded, I guess that would be the right word.

Lastly, last I checked, all healers have dispels and 50% of them have offensive dispels, so if you plan to do nothing as a boomkin but spam thorns with no dispel protection...go for it, I'm sure the opposing teams will enjoy those points.

[qarak]

All healers have offensive dispels? when did paladins and druids get an offensive "purge"? Must of missed that could of sworn all healers have defensive dispels now...

[sicness]

I think the damage is fine but the up-time needs to be reconsidered. With damage like that, Thorns can't be allowed to have an up-time of over 25%.

This exactly. This is also the ONLY valid argument you can make against thorns, as any damage numbers comparison is irrelevant for several obvious reasons. Not being 85, not having level 85 pvp gear, not having all abilities, no proof of doing a standard rotation...

[tennis125]

So you're complaining about thorns when a pally's Retribution aura does almost the exact same thing, if not more powerful...


goodness, something gets changed and ppl QQ..

[Bucky Mclachlan]

All I see is one hemo debuff and crippling poison, with no actual display of the rogues damage. Show me a rogue using his tools and then I'll concede that the ability is slightly over tuned. Secondly...why make this thread showing a 1v1 if you know it's not balanced around 1v1? I don't play a rogue or druid, so I have no personal stake in this, I just find this whole debate of PTR damage being used to call something OP in a 1v1 setting....retarded, I guess that would be the right word.

Lastly, last I checked, all healers have dispels, so if you plan to do nothing as a boomkin but spam thorns with no dispel protection...go for it, I'm sure the opposing teams will enjoy those points.

No offense man but you're kind of totally clueless and have no idea what you're talking about at all. I mean you pretty much said it yourself I don't even play these classes, but I'm just running my mouth anyways!

This is not only a problem on the PTR, it is in fact a problem on the BETA. Casters have entirely too much burst and they are dominating the playing field there as well. Healers don't even have enough time to react for the most part, or enough mana to keep someone up from something like this.

Casters damage all around is out of control and needs to be nerfed, this is one such example.

In fact I'm just going to gop ahead and say this because it's 100% true and needs to be said: anyone in this thread saying anything a long the lines of "STOP QQING OMGZ THIS IS AWESOME YOU CAN'T HANDLE CHANGE" is not on the BETA at all, probably not even on the PTR, and probably is not particularly at this game and has no idea how any of the mechanics are supposed to work or do work at all whatsoever.

Also self healing is a joke. Even at 85 it's not that great of an advantage.

[Danuru]

Thorns being nature damage (as opposed to physical), could a rogue pop cloak of shadows and make it completely useless? at least for a few seconds...

[Swizzle]

No offense man but you're kind of totally clueless and have no idea what you're talking about at all.

This is not only a problem on the PTR, it is in fact a problem on the BETA. Casters have entirely too much burst and they are dominating the playing field there as well. Healers don't even have enough time to react for the most part, or enough mana to keep someone up from something like this.

Casters damage all around is out of control and needs to be nerfed, this is one such example.

I heard there was a huge amount of PvP gear available on Beta. In any case, the SS provided were from PTR complaining about PTR, so I'm discussing PTR, not Beta. Hell, even the title says: "PTR Thorns Too High, Screens Inside."

I heard caster damage was so high that Cho'gall was one shot by a Beta raid of 25 mages.

[Asatru]

All I see is one hemo debuff and crippling poison, with no actual display of the rogues damage. Show me a rogue using his tools and then I'll concede that the ability is slightly over tuned. Secondly...why make this thread showing a 1v1 if you know it's not balanced around 1v1? I don't play a rogue or druid, so I have no personal stake in this, I just find this whole debate of PTR damage being used to call something OP in a 1v1 setting....retarded, I guess that would be the right word.

Lastly, last I checked, all healers have dispels and 50% of them have offensive dispels, so if you plan to do nothing as a boomkin but spam thorns with no dispel protection...go for it, I'm sure the opposing teams will enjoy those points.

lol op just got raped by this post.

[Bucky Mclachlan]

I heard there was a huge amount of PvP gear available on Beta. In any case, the SS provided were from PTR complaining about PTR, so I'm discussing PTR, not Beta. Hell, even the title says: "PTR Thorns Too High, Screens Inside."

I heard caster damage was so high that Cho'gall was one shot by a Beta raid of 25 mages.

You're discussing things you have no relevant experience with. That's the point.

Seriously dude get on the PTR and test it for yourself or just shut up. The BETA is not a whole lot different, though I have no idea in the world why you would think it would be except that you're simply an average or bad gamer lacking some common sense.

The way things currently are, casters still have ridiculous burst at level 85. It's bad enough to the point where certain classes (i.e. warriors) can't even really use their traditional pvp specs very effectively and pretty much have to go prot.

[Swizzle]

You're discussing things you have no relevant experience with. That's the point.

Seriously dude get on the PTR and test it for yourself or just shut up. The BETA is not a whole lot different, though I have no idea in the world why you would think it would be except that you're simply an average or bad gamer lacking some common sense.

The way things currently are, casters still have ridiculous burst at level 85. It's bad enough to the point where certain classes (i.e. warriors) can't even really use their traditional pvp specs very effectively and pretty much have to go prot.

It's funny cause the argument you make doesn't fit here. PTR is un-blanaced, and if you want it to be balanced, then I suggest maybe...CS? Has blizz said PTR numbers are not balanced for level 80? Yup. Does this have any ramification on anything? Nope. No arena. No rated BGs. Huh, it's almost as if they predicted this would happen. 1v1 doesn't matter and no one worth their salt actually cares about it.

Also, last I checked, the PvP testing has either just started or will start soon, so comparing green/blue geared PvP experience with well geared/skilled PvP is like comparing Sunny Delight to an Orange.

Lastly, I'm not really seeing this huge damage discrepancy between the casters that you mention. Hell, the caster videos from beta do damage equal to, and sometimes lower than, the damage on live. My guess? You're just an awful player who really needs every aspect of the game outside the one you play to be nerfed to actually enjoy it. Just my two cents though, since I don't feel like getting into an e-peen off here.

[Milky]

Swizzle is the only one making sense here.

[sicness]

No offense man but you're kind of totally clueless and have no idea what you're talking about at all. I mean you pretty much said it yourself I don't even play these classes, but I'm just running my mouth anyways!

This is not only a problem on the PTR, it is in fact a problem on the BETA. Casters have entirely too much burst and they are dominating the playing field there as well. Healers don't even have enough time to react for the most part, or enough mana to keep someone up from something like this.

Casters damage all around is out of control and needs to be nerfed, this is one such example.

In fact I'm just going to gop ahead and say this because it's 100% true and needs to be said: anyone in this thread saying anything a long the lines of "STOP QQING OMGZ THIS IS AWESOME YOU CAN'T HANDLE CHANGE" is not on the BETA at all, probably not even on the PTR, and probably is not particularly at this game and has no idea how any of the mechanics are supposed to work or do work at all whatsoever.

Also self healing is a joke. Even at 85 it's not that great of an advantage.

Oh is pvp gear available all of a sudden on beta now? Also has everyone learned how to play their classes with their new talents and abilities all of a sudden? Oh wait, no. People are in greens and some blues and for the most part most of them have no clue how to pvp nor how every class is going to change in game play at 85.

[Swizzle]

It takes a team to PvP, but it only takes one to QQ.

[Asatru]

it takes a team to pvp, but it only takes one to qq.

oh shi-

[Bucky Mclachlan]

This exactly. This is also the ONLY valid argument you can make against thorns, as any damage numbers comparison is irrelevant for several obvious reasons. Not being 85, not having level 85 pvp gear, not having all abilities, no proof of doing a standard rotation...

Stamina does not change the fact that the ability is OP. A passive ability should not be doing more damage than any classes main attacks. Thorns does more damage than bladestorm FFS.

The only thing that seems to be irrelevent if your ability to properly determine what is OP or not.

All a druid needs to do to beat a melee class is cast this buff and spam moonfire. This doesn't even take into account the fact that Star Surge crits for up to 25k and insect swarm tics for 3k, at level 80.

If all you can say is "OMG we don't have cata gear with all it's amazing stamina" you really should just stop typing and read what is being said here. Spells obviously scale with your level. The damage is not lower or in proportion to level 85 health pools. This shit is also a problem at LEVEL 85 on the BETA. It certainly doesn't help that all classes have around the same HP.

[Deralte]

The damage of this ability is fine, though the cooldown and the glyph will be changed. Is what i think, atleast.

[Bucky Mclachlan]

Oh is pvp gear available all of a sudden on beta now? Also has everyone learned how to play their classes with their new talents and abilities all of a sudden? Oh wait, no. People are in greens and some blues and for the most part most of them have no clue how to pvp nor how every class is going to change in game play at 85.

Well it's a good thing we're having a discussion about the DAMAGE that a spell does, and how it is DOING TOO MUCH. You see knowing how to PVP or not does not change the fact that the spells do TOO MUCH damage. Do you not understand this? It is very very simple.

Also arena season 9 is being tested on the BETA right now.

So, I say again, stop talking about shit you don't know anything about. Good grief. -_-

[sicness]

Well it's a good thing we're having a discussion about the DAMAGE that a spell does, and how it is DOING TOO MUCH. You see knowing how to PVP or not does not change the fact that the spells do TOO MUCH damage. Do you not understand this? It is very very simple.

Also arena season 9 is being tested on the BETA right now.

So, I say again, stop talking about shit you don't know anything about. Good grief. -_-

Do you not understand how pvp gear not only increases your stamina exponentially but also reduces incoming damage as well? Therefor you can't accurately base a test that assumes a spell is doing too much damage without pvp gear being involved. You're the clueless one here, you're not taking all the factors into account, only the ones you want to consider that support your theory. I don't even have to be in beta to know that your whole complaint has major flaws that we're trying to point out to you that CAN'T be avoided in the discussion you're trying to have.

Also, while arena is being tested on beta, it's being done without pvp gear for the most part because there's no way in hell everyone has the typical pvp set they're going to have for arenas so they won't have the stamina or resilience required to prove anything.

If you think it's overpowered do some beta testing and prove it, but leaving out major factors in the testing only makes you look like a fool for screaming overpowered without considering all of the factors. Basic science 101, if you want to prove something you have to have an accurate test environment which involves everything that effects what you're trying to prove, not just what you think is relevant.

[OldHordeGlory]

I've seen several times previously that numbers are the least of the development teams concerns, as those can be tweaked quite easily later on. But on the other hand, how do they know to tweak them if posts like the OP don't make it to them (I'm well aware this particular thread won't make it to the important people regardless, you know what I mean though).

I get that numbers are supposed to be balanced around level 85, but I'd rather them undershoot the values below 85 than overshoot them. That was it makes hitting 85 more pleasurable, rather than getting there and noticing 'Oy, my Thorns don't do NEARLY the relative damage they used to.'

[Bucky Mclachlan]

It's funny cause the argument you make doesn't fit here. PTR is un-blanaced

It's funny because you keep talking like you have any knowledge whatsoever about what you're talking about but you quite clearly do not. Can you not read? The BETA is just as unbalanced. What part of the whole point about how casters are compeltely dominating pvp on the PTR AND BETA did you not understand?

Also reported for spamming in trolling. You're adding nothing of value to this discussion whatsoever, you in fact have no knowledge about what is being discussed, and your resorting to personal attacks.

You're just a troll trolling a thread and have no idea what you're talking about. Have a nice day.

P.S. I'm right and you're wrong. Dig?