Shiny new talents or a step backwards in character design?

[Nymphys]

Imo this new talent system will give you more freedom in picking talents you like without screwing up completely

I think the point is that there's simply not that much freedom. You HAVE to pick 31 points in your first tree, and in some cases there's only about 34 points in a tree so that's almost everything except one talent that you're forced to pick. Then, you can get a couple of utility talents in another tree (which are usually obvious). That's the lack of choice people are referring to.

[Corgrash]

Beneficial? Sure.
Optimal? Not in the least.

Please stop convincing yourself that because you had the choice to use a sub-optimal spec and it's now harder to have a sub-optimal spec that they are somehow "giving up."

If anything, there are more choices now, because it's obvious what talents you really need, leaving more open for flavor. I found that while messing around with the new talent calculator that I often found myself wondering which subspec would be more fun, because neither offered something completely optimal.

Although I find your arrogance and self assurance in knowing how I am or how I think rude, Ill continue to debate.

You claim that those 3 choices had an optimal choice over 2 beneficial choices yet not optimum.

So which would you choose and why?

Elemental Weapons for the increased SP
Healing Way for bigger Healing Wave heals
Improved reincarnation for 30% HP and mana upon revival rather than 5% (might be 10%)


This isnt 'attempting to do a sub-optimum spec' as you have so narrow mindedly said. It is also not me claiming blizzard have simply given up. Its simply a game design choice not a "Oh we give up and cant do this so lets do it this easier way."

[Ragels]

Although I find your arrogance and self assurance in knowing how I am or how I think rude, Ill continue to debate.

You claim that those 3 choices had an optimal choice over 2 beneficial choices yet not optimum.

So which would you choose and why?

Elemental Weapons for the increased SP
Healing Way for bigger Healing Wave heals
Improved reincarnation for 30% HP and mana upon revival rather than 5% (might be 10%)


This isnt 'attempting to do a sub-optimum spec' as you have so narrow mindedly said. It is also not me claiming blizzard have simply given up. Its simply a game design choice not a "Oh we give up and cant do this so lets do it this easier way."

I don't play a shaman. Go ask EJ, I'm 100% sure they have the math to tell you which is optimal. I can tell you right now that Imp. Reincarnation isn't.

[Corgrash]

I don't play a shaman. Go ask EJ, I'm 100% sure they have the math to tell you which is optimal. I can tell you right now that Imp. Reincarnation isn't.

Actually iirc, EJ said about these points not having a 'you must choose this' talent to pick. It left talents that were more a choice to player style than 'this will increase your performance by exactly 20% HEP.'

[Paulosio]

As a hunter I actually like the fact I can take a spec I raid with into a BG and not feel completely gimped.

For hunters all the talents that got removed were never really choices anyway... they were things you were forced to take if you wanted to maximise your dps. The only choice you had before was "do I want to do max dps" or "do I want to do good but not max dps and get some utility (scatter shot etc) which i'll never need to use in PVE anyawy".

Most people were just coping other peoples specs from armory or reading a website that told them what to spec. For those that didn't they will no longer be able to pick such bad specs.

As a marksman hunter the only things I ever juggled were the hit talent depending on my current gear setup and if I wanted 1 or 2 points in rapid recuperation depending on how many points I put in the hit talents... that isn't a choice. The hit issue is solved by reforging.

I only see positives from this.

[Ragels]

Actually iirc, EJ said about these points not having a 'you must choose this' talent to pick. It left talents that were more a choice to player style than 'this will increase your performance by exactly 20% HEP.'

There would still be an optimal spec for the situation. I assume for tank healing you would want bigger Healing Waves, but I don't really know anything about shamans.

Regardless, I honestly think this new way with specs leaves a lot more choice in the way of subspecs than before. Sure, the individual talent trees are trimmed way down, but honestly I don't see why it would bother someone. For the majority of classes, there was maybe one or two talents that were choices in their main specs tree, and the subspec was pretty clear as to what you needed. With the new trees, your main spec is very clear, leaving more choices for subspec.

Like I said, there are about the same amount of choices as before, it's just more clear on what you actually NEED.

[Cookies_N_Creme]

With the way the game is now, There will always be cookie cutter specs, because someone will always min-max the BEST spec, So your complaint isnt about Blizz, but it's to the players, The best way to combat this is to remove talents completely, But then you would cry about everyone being the same AGAIN, Rock, Hard place, Please pick.

[AlexGrey]

I say we insert 25-30 talents that are complete crap so people have more choice, how's that sound?

[Steampunk]

The whole thing feels like a step back and to the side... to me at least.

We have a system that is guaranteed to get clogged up again with unnecessary talents. This just gives them more time to work on a solution.

[Corgrash]

There would still be an optimal spec for the situation. I assume for tank healing you would want bigger Healing Waves, but I don't really know anything about shamans.

Regardless, I honestly think this new way with specs leaves a lot more choice in the way of subspecs than before. Sure, the individual talent trees are trimmed way down, but honestly I don't see why it would bother someone. For the majority of classes, there was maybe one or two talents that were choices in their main specs tree, and the subspec was pretty clear as to what you needed. With the new trees, your main spec is very clear, leaving more choices for subspec.

Like I said, there are about the same amount of choices as before, it's just more clear on what you actually NEED.

All 3 choices aid all situations in some way. (Except ofc imp reincarnation if you are immortal and never make mistakes EVER or die to RNG happenings)
I have to say this isnt that much of an exciting choice as to what it could be, however in my eyes it seems a very open and imaginative direction to go in to create a more compelling feel to a players' character.

As for the second part. Your main tree you have picked to specialise in and defines your characters role/class/feel seems to have no imagination at all. True you have the other 2 specs to invest 10 or so talents in, however in most the trees that simply another no brainer due to there only being 3/4 talents relevant to your spec. Most of the time they simply are: 'Your spell in your rotation now deals 10% more dmg'.

[AlexGrey]

With the way the game is now, There will always be cookie cutter specs, because someone will always min-max the BEST spec, So your complaint isnt about Blizz, but it's to the players, The best way to combat this is to remove talents completely, But then you would cry about everyone being the same AGAIN, Rock, Hard place, Please pick.

No. Just no.

Please understand the 'almighty context,' as it does exist. Specific talent points will fit some encounters/situations better than others. There is no One Shoe Fits All here, there is no ideal, and I doubt even the most dedicated gamer/number cruncher could find it.

It has pretty much always been that way, but less talents solidifies the choices more particularly, leaving less #crunching to the players so the designers can worry about it.

[Kilpi]

Well, seeing what was going on on PTR they didn't make the trees simple enough for some people. Many times I saw people asking for specs.. "anyone have a resto shaman spec, /w me!" made me laugh many times. It's nice when people can think with their own brains.

[mikklas]

Pick up rogue... Take sub, spec for pvp... There are like 6 different ways of speccing there. One example, could find more easily, but didn't bother the counting.

[Corgrash]

An example of what they could of invested in was to take the 'fun utility talents' which both aid your performance and add fun gimicks to the game, and put them at the ends of ladders, similar to what they have already on some talents that are linked.

However instead of just having them linked for the sake of the previous talents being necessary for the final talent in the tree to be useful, it should be so that you cant have every single gimick. Instead you have to choose which ones you prefer to have, or which ones the other raiders in your team of the same class havent picked to be used together in a team spirit manner. To avoid simply just choosing the one that 'increases your dps the most,' make it so that if the raid team doesnt have this talent, it reduces the performance of the raid. However not to the extent that it completely nerfs the raid team so that people arent getting picked due to them not having such and such talent.

There is no need to add 'bad, unimaginative, boring talents' just to fill up trees and create choices that if you choose make your spec bad.

[AlexGrey]

Well, seeing what was going on on PTR they didn't make the trees simple enough for some people. Many times I saw people asking for specs.. "anyone have a resto shaman spec, /w me!" made me laugh many times. It's nice when people can think with their own brains.

lol that is pretty sad. I wonder if those people have ever heard of Google

[Azrile]

I was honestly hoping the trees would be wider with talents that you could use to fit your gamestyle. I don't think it was a matter of 'sub-optimizing'.. i just think there are different ways to play the same spec.

For instance, I know many moonkin who use ER on almost every pull while questing. I dont' think I've ever used it while questing, I take a shot or two in the face and use my herbalism healing. Kinda the same thing with frost mages. I never use Nova, I prefer barrier.

The devs then basically said that the 'middle teir' glyphs would be the ones that provided those time of non-dps differences. But now if you look at the middle glyphs, they basically pick themselves too.

Some of the specs got it right. I know my sub rogue's talent choices are interesting.. probably 3 points in the sub tree and 10 points in other trees are all real 'choices' that fit I can choice to enhance the way I play.

Other specs are just way way too predictable. When we say we want choices, we aren't saying we want sub-optimal specs. we are saying we want talents that affect abilities that different players use differently. There should be more places where you choose between non-dps enhancing abilities, or at least two very different dps abilities.

The new system is awesome for leveling, especially lvl 10. But I think they put a lot of work into the trees that really didn't make the game better at endgame. The only thing it did is make things easier for the devs to balance.

[Fergand]

It's hard to really see the new talent trees for what they're worth, It's a huge change, which can be very scary...

To be honest, it does remove a little bit in the ability to experiment with the talents. But at the same time, I'm having a harder time picking the exact spec I would want to use. In wrath, the choices were obvious to me. I looked them over, and knew what would be optimal for me very quickly (looked it up later, and it was exactly the same on EJ).

It's been a lot more difficult this time around. Once I choose my first 31 points, I start to reach a grey area. There are still a lot of good talents to pick from, but only a handful of points left to spend.

Additionally, an aspect that may people might not fully realize, The new trees will be easier to balance. Not necessarily in a 'Blizzard is lazy' way, but it would allow them to put powerful talents in the second tiers, knowing that you can't grab them all by sacrificing your final talent for your spec.

[sicness]

The funny thing is currently the 1-2 talent options you have in almost every single spec does make you more unique now. Every single spec has at least 1 talent option where they can choose any sort of utility or pvp type talent (blizzard calls them 'fun' talents) that you can pick and won't effect your dps/tanking/healing at all. This is good for the game, not having stupid talents that are required and forcing everyone into the exact same spec to optimize dps/tanking/healing. The new system allows you to be unique while still viable, unlike the old.

[VoodooStu]

The fact that instead of picking what you like, you google the best specs doesn't mean that the game has failed you. it means you are making the game boring for yourself. there are plenty of specs that work fine, usually the most popular one for PVE is the one that has highest dps (obviously) but in PVE there is much more choice, people just don't give it a chance.

[Terramourn]

Most players were already googling and getting a cookie cutter spec, that 90% of the other players already used. It was not a way to distinguish players at all. At least now, bads won't spec "too bad", not that it will keep them from doing 2k dps with 30% ICC buff ^^

Damn it looks like i found some1 i've grouped with =P, but really i would think this is the main reason y the decided to go this way on talents