[TV] The Walking Dead (*Spoilers*)

[Graeham]

You literally said "he isn't much different to his enemies". His enemies have been murderers, cannibals, and rapists. I'm sorry, but 'hyperbole' isn't a synonym for something that disproves whatever points you try to make.

I'm pretty sure you know what I was getting at. He's not exactly like his enemies but he's pretty ruthless, murderous and hypocritical. Which makes Gabriel's reaction understandable: he's an outsider and didn't want to trust Rick because Rick's become a pretty psychotic guy. We'll just have to agree to disagree, I guess!

[Kelimbror]

murderous and hypocritical

Kills to protect people and does not kill for any other reason. You have a strange concept of these words I have quoted. But sure, agree to disagree..........

[Grimbold21]

My reaction was "woah!! what the hell?!", something that hasn't happened in a while. A few minutes later, i could only think of why would they kill her off?

[eschatological]

I mean, I think the murder of the cop was pretty murderous. I, personally, feel it's probably the first "unjustified" thing Rick has done on the show. I put "unjustified" in quotes because you can justify anything in the zombie apocalypse, even Gareth's cannibalism, in the name of survival. It wasn't strictly necessary, and might have even been a negative towards his group's survival if the two other cops didn't play along and agree to say he was eaten by Walkers.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

I mean, I think the murder of the cop was pretty murderous. I, personally, feel it's probably the first "unjustified" thing Rick has done on the show. I put "unjustified" in quotes because you can justify anything in the zombie apocalypse, even Gareth's cannibalism, in the name of survival. It wasn't strictly necessary, and might have even been a negative towards his group's survival if the two other cops didn't play along and agree to say he was eaten by Walkers.

The same logic could be used to say that the Govenor's actions were justified by means that the prison group was a possible threat (whether or not the prison intended to attack the Govenor's camp is irrelevant; they were a threat). Could also be used to say that Negan isn't so bad after all.

[Kelimbror]

you can justify anything in the zombie apocalypse, even Gareth's cannibalism, in the name of survival.

You can't actually. There is no justification for it. Instead of putting on their effort caps and catching food, growing food, or scavenging food...they resort to kidnap, murder, and cannibalism. That's pretty much the opposite of justifiable, regardless of the apocalypse. This isn't people stranded on a desert island or remote mountain. There are remnants of goods and actual animal/plant life all around. Sometimes things really are black and white, no mater how much we try to paint it grey.

[Halicia]

Sometimes things really are black and white, no mater how much we try to paint it grey.

When everything is grey (at best) it becomes a lot harder to tell when things have gone into the black, and this is what Gabriel helps present, the contrast between white & black that is harder to identify with the necessities of survival.

[Faltemer]

The same logic could be used to say that the Govenor's actions were justified by means that the prison group was a possible threat (whether or not the prison intended to attack the Govenor's camp is irrelevant; they were a threat). Could also be used to say that Negan isn't so bad after all.

And i think someone could and should argue these things. On Talking Dead they, including Kirkman himself mentioned several times that the group from the outside is terrifying and appears as scary if not more then the Gareth's and governor's of the world. Negan seems less possible to justify, even in his demented reasoning all he is doing is for himself and his actions are deplorable throughout, although he does help/protect some people....

I mean overall Rick's group tends to in my opinion be more morally righteous then most other people they encounter, but I feel overall they have stopped being great people and the bad things they are willing to do for themselves and the rest of the group are becoming more and more apparent. In their defense though, I can't recall a single person in either the books or TV show who managed to survive a long time while still being what i would consider a good person.

As a random aside, how long was Rick in the hospital? It just occurred to me he was there for possibly days/weeks without any form of help while in a coma. Which confuses me how he survived.

And another question, was anyone else incredibly disappointed that the two biggest differences between the show and comic so far (besides the awful CDC storyline) with the hospital and Terminus both get very little time spent on them? I mean the whole second half of last season led up to Terminus, and then they are dealt with in two-three episodes? The hospital had about two episodes fully based around it. I really wanted them to flesh out at least one of these, and they seemed to be leading to it with terminus considering 90% of the cast was there, but nope carol 1vxx them an then they butcher them in a church. Even though comic 66 (the slaughter of the cannibals) is one of my favorite they built up terminus too much so even then their slaughter felt like a let down.

[Shiny212]

They can never run out of tank tops, they scavenged a fruit of the loom factory or something, plus Andrea and Rosita are still wearing them in the comics

I hope Gabriel goes all badass, then he could be like Judge from Hunter the Reckoning.

OH MY GOD I had forgotten that game

[Graeham]

I actually think it would have been better if Terminus had been destroyed early on the season but Gareth and a few of his allies survived and then managed to track Rick to the hospital just as the hostage exchange with Beth was happening. Dawn could mistake it as Rick going against his terms by having additional allies arrive to help him overthrow the hospital and grab Beth out of misguided desperation and accidentally shoot her in the process. Daryl could snap and kill her just as a three way firefight breaks out between the three groups.

It would have made for a more satisfying closure to the main plots of the season so far and set up a nice cliffhanger - especially if some of Rick's group ended up getting shot.

[Faltemer]

You can't actually. There is no justification for it. Instead of putting on their effort caps and catching food, growing food, or scavenging food...they resort to kidnap, murder, and cannibalism. That's pretty much the opposite of justifiable, regardless of the apocalypse. This isn't people stranded on a desert island or remote mountain. There are remnants of goods and actual animal/plant life all around. Sometimes things really are black and white, no mater how much we try to paint it grey.

They explain it better in the comics. But the gist of their justification is that in the wild bears will eat their young if it comes to it, because better the parents survive and possibly create more children then to have everyone die. They use roughly the same justifcation. They plan to create a new society, and they see their best way of surviving as killing/eating people. It's not great but it's something.

I mean really there is no justification for Rick killing Lamson. As far as I am aware Lamson wasn't a rapist or abuser, and unless we know for certain he was he didn't do anything wrong. Rick kidnapped him, for his own reasons. he escapes because he was kidnapped, Rick demands he stops, not wanting to stay kidnapped he doesn't rick smashes him with a car and then kills him. At no point in that did Lamson do anything wrong. Arguably taking people and forcing them to work off their supposed debt isn't great, but mindlessly killing him isn't okay either.

[Kelimbror]

When everything is grey (at best) it becomes a lot harder to tell when things have gone into the black, and this is what Gabriel helps present, the contrast between white & black that is harder to identify with the necessities of survival.

I'm not sure how having Jesus in your heart does anything but paint a drab religious morality over an otherwise normal story....especially when the person in question let tons of people die to save themselves. If anything Gabriel serves to muddle the picture and try to make it more grey. As appalled as he is by murder, he already murdered even more people than that due to inaction. He will learn, like Tyrese should have learned already, that being a passive bystander only gets people killed.

[Faltemer]

I actually think it would have been better if Terminus had been destroyed early on the season but Gareth and a few of his allies survived and then managed to track Rick to the hospital just as the hostage exchange with Beth was happening. Dawn could mistake it as Rick going against his terms by having additional allies arrive to help him overthrow the hospital and grab Beth out of misguided desperation and accidentally shoot her in the process. Daryl could snap and kill her just as a three way firefight breaks out between the three groups.

It would have made for a more satisfying closure to the main plots of the season so far and set up a nice cliffhanger - especially if some of Rick's group ended up getting shot.

That would require more deaths on Rick's group side which i don't think they wanted. because you can't keep having firefights where none of the good guys get shot, it just gets ridiculous. Plus I feel like that would have been an odd way to wrap up the Terminus storyline. If anything I think it would have been interesting to have the Termites and hospital be one working group. Those that the hospital deems unsavable get eaten, the people the termites deem workable can work at one of the two areas.

[Graeham]

I'm not sure how having Jesus in your heart does anything but paint a drab religious morality over an otherwise normal story....especially when the person in question let tons of people die to save themselves. If anything Gabriel serves to muddle the picture and try to make it more grey. As appalled as he is by murder, he already murdered even more people than that due to inaction. He will learn, like Tyrese should have learned already, that being a passive bystander only gets people killed.

...which makes him an interesting character. He's self-righteous but also a hypocrite which makes him mirror Rick in many ways. I have to wonder if he'll abandon religion altogether at some point or have a crisis of faith since Carol used to be pretty devout in the early seasons and now seems to have set aside her beliefs.

[Faltemer]

I'm not sure how having Jesus in your heart does anything but paint a drab religious morality over an otherwise normal story....especially when the person in question let tons of people die to save themselves. If anything Gabriel serves to muddle the picture and try to make it more grey. As appalled as he is by murder, he already murdered even more people than that due to inaction. He will learn, like Tyrese should have learned already, that being a passive bystander only gets people killed.

Gabriel definitely isn't a saint. But to me he serves the purpose of some who is incredibly ignorant of the situation and their own decisions. It's basically the stereotypical bad guy trait of not believing your actions are really that bad. That's why the villains who know they are evil I tend to like much much more.

[Kelimbror]

They explain it better in the comics.

Maybe, but we are talking about the show.

Arguably taking people and forcing them to work off their supposed debt isn't great, but mindlessly killing him isn't okay either.

Looks like he's helping abolish slavery. Most people would call that heroic. If you are a willing part of a system that abuses people, you are a villain. Call Rick a vigilante, an antihero, but he's not 'bad'. It's as simple as his 3 questions. That's all you need to know.

And again, I know plenty of people will disagree. Not going to argue anyone's opinion. That's just how I see it. I don't understand how more people don't see that, but it is what it is.

[Faltemer]

...which makes him an interesting character. He's self-righteous but also a hypocrite which makes him mirror Rick in many ways. I have to wonder if he'll abandon religion altogether at some point or have a crisis of faith since Carol used to be pretty devout in the early seasons and now seems to have set aside her beliefs.

I hope they don't do a religious episode I just don't see that going over well. Otherwise so far Gabriel really has only served to be an annoying character that I don't feel like the group would normally allow him to stay with them.

[Kelimbror]

...which makes him an interesting character. He's self-righteous but also a hypocrite which makes him mirror Rick in many ways. I have to wonder if he'll abandon religion altogether at some point or have a crisis of faith since Carol used to be pretty devout in the early seasons and now seems to have set aside her beliefs.

I think interesting is going a little far. When you have Herschel as the comparison, he comes up as pretty dull tbh. I feel like faith is used just like a token ethnic person on this show. Someone somewhere always has to believe in jesus. When one light dims, another must rise up to shine the light of the good lord. It gets a little tiring.

How many people have we watched go through this? Carol, Herschel, Maggie, Beth, and on and on.

[Graeham]

I think interesting is going a little far. When you have Herschel as the comparison, he comes up as pretty dull tbh. I feel like faith is used just like a token ethnic person on this show. Someone somewhere always has to believe in jesus. When one light dims, another must rise up to shine the light of the good lord. It gets a little tiring.

How many people have we watched go through this? Carol, Herschel, Maggie, Beth, and on and on.

I assume it has something to do with the target audience primarily being Americans. There's a lot of religious people over there after all. I do agree that it's a repetitive plot point though. Then again the show has become fairly predictable where certain elements are concerned such as 'shock' deaths for mid season/end season finales.

[Kelimbror]

I assume it has something to do with the target audience primarily being Americans. There's a lot of religious people over there after all. I do agree that it's a repetitive plot point though. Then again the show has become fairly predictable where certain elements are concerned such as 'shock' deaths for mid season/end season finales.

Yeah...that's probably the weakest point of the show. The recurring themes happen way too often and all resolve in similar fashion.