Destro haste

[squid]

Yeah I know GCD but my question is - Is this 0.8sec cast which is under the GCD is the reason that I have this spell queing problem ><. Cuz I dont have this kind of problem in afflic spec which almost every spell cast time is more than 1 sec. My latency in the game is usually around 150-200 so I dont entirely think this is about the connection prob.

This is just an issue with the current queuing system being slow and has been commented on by GC. As far as GCD you can cast spells shorter than 1 second its just that you cannot cast the NEXT spell for 1 second, however Backdraft shortens that by 30% along with cast time so no need to worry about the GCD.

The problem you are dealing with is the spell queue system overcompensating for potential latency, and will be fixed by cata at the latest, if not by a hotfix to the queue system then by the new option being added to control that compensation manually in your settings.

[Morath]

You're both off a tad. Re-posting this from the other thread about Destro and Haste

ehm, and Improved Soul Fire Effect - 15% haste? 20% of boss is long time, and another 20 or more % will be in Heroism, in that two phases is more haste useles. Main damage spell for destlock is Incinerate, that mean that spell must be in raid 1s cast, or we are at GCD.

[Deleted]

ehm, and Improved Soul Fire Effect - 15% haste? 20% of boss is long time, and another 20 or more % will be in Heroism, in that two phases is more haste useles. Main damage spell for destlock is Incinerate, that mean that spell must be in raid 1s cast, or we are at GCD.

I tend to ignore anything that has only a temporary effect like these, Hero/BL anyway, but for the record.

ISF:
GCD Cap (50% haste): 795 [24.22%]
Backdraft Chaos Bolt: 523 [15.94%]
Backdraft Incinerate: 997 [30.43%]

Hero:
GCD Cap (50% haste): 325 [9.89%]
Backdraft Chaos Bolt: 85 [2.56%]
Backdraft Incinerate: 505 [15.38%]

Hero + ISF (edit: apparently these may not stack):
GCD Cap (50% haste): 0 [-4.44%]
Backdraft Chaos Bolt: 0 [-10.81%]
Backdraft Incinerate: 11 [0.33%]

So, gearing for haste cap with ISF and Hero is at least pretty easy.

[Dethh]

[QUOTE=ratskinmahoney;9171781]I tend to ignore anything that has only a temporary effect like these, Hero/BL anyway, but for the record.

ISF
Backdraft Chaos Bolt: 523 [15.94%]


Why would you cast chaos bolt under backdraft effect? Loss of dps.

[Deleted]

Why would you cast chaos bolt under backdraft effect? Loss of dps.

Well, I calculated it for the sake of completeness, not because I advise it. Chaos Bolt under Backdraft is the first spell that will be haste capped so gives a good idea of where the caps begin.

As for dps loss: It is a minor dps loss in a straight single conflag burst (especially now that pyroclasm has gone). However, in an extended 'rotation' you should be using conf and cb on every cooldown, or as near as damnit. Delaying cb by 3 seconds is also a dps loss, especially when that delay is compounded by later delays. I'm not sure which is more, but I would tend towards thinking that while you should cast cb before conf where possible, you should prioritise your cds over lining up backdrafted incinerates.

I may be wrong in that, and as the above numbers show, at higher haste levels the dps loss of backdrafting a cb rather than incin gets larger.

Edit:

Incidentally, part of the reason for my first post was to show that backdraft doesn't have a huge effect on haste caps for destro locks. I wouldn't suggest that it would be worth gearing around a 1093 cap, given the relative rarity of CB being cast under BD, and hence the very small loss of value that haste incurs at that point.

[nocturnus]

Why would you cast chaos bolt under backdraft effect? Loss of dps.

This doesn't make ANY sense whatsoever. It's never a dps loss to cast a more powerful spell as fast as possible. DPS is calculated cumulatively. So a backdrafted incinerate + a non backdrafted CB is equal to a backdrafted CB + a non backdrafted incinerate (as long as that CB's cast time isn't <1sec)

[Deleted]

... a backdrafted incinerate + a non backdrafted CB is equal to a backdrafted CB + a non backdrafted incinerate (as long as that CB's cast time isn't <1sec)

Not true. Consider, the damage done by the CB and the Incin is unchanged by backdraft. So damage done is constant.
Time spent casting is either:
BD+Invin then CB = 1.575 + 2 = 3.575
or
BD+CB then Incin = 1.4 + 2.25 = 3.65

so dps is lower in the second case. (by about 2.1%)

[nocturnus]

I understand the calculation but when you look at the overal picture (for example simcraft a parse longer than one single rotation) you gain more from casting CB as soon as it's off cd rather than waiting for the 3 incinerates to line up.

Let's say a cb does 10k damage - 2 sec cast time
Let's say an incin does 7k damage - 2.5 sec cast time

3x backdrafted incinerates + 1 non backdrafted cb = 1.75*3+2= 31k damage in 7.25 seconds

1x backdrafted cb + 2x backdrafted incinerates + 1 non backdrafted incinerate = 1.4+2*1.75+2.5 = 31k damage in 7.4 seconds

2.06..% lower dps in one rotation (you lose 0.15 seconds in one backdrafted CB rotation)--> This is what you gain in ONE rotation if your 3 incinerates are lined up, 0.15 seconds. Now you have to calculate the variables of leaving CB untouched after it goes off cooldown for a number of seconds. We could test this again in a simcraft parse.

[Dethh]

Problem I'm seeing is Incinerate hitting harder than chaosbolt most of the time. Plus with soulfire and backdraft Incin is better.

[Deleted]

I understand the calculation but when you look at the overal picture (for example simcraft a parse longer than one single rotation) you gain more from casting CB as soon as it's off cd rather than waiting for the 3 incinerates to line up.

This is what I assumed. This was the case pre 4.01, though pyroclasm contributed as well (it being more beneficial to cast cb under pyro than to line up incins). Incin is 2.25 cast time with Emberstorm btw.

Problem I'm seeing is Incinerate hitting harder than chaosbolt most of the time. Plus with soulfire and backdraft Incin is better.

I haven't checked numbers carefully yet, so you may well be right.

[nocturnus]

Problem I'm seeing is Incinerate hitting harder than chaosbolt most of the time. Plus with soulfire and backdraft Incin is better.

This is very unlikely. My cb hits quite a bit harder than incin. Almost as hard as soulfire. I will check the exact numbers when I get home.

Anyway Ratskin, we can easily resolve this doubt by parsing 2 10min fights. One with incinerates lined up and one with CB on a lower priority list and one with CB on a higher priority list.

[Vocah]

ISF and Hero don't stack

[Deleted]

ISF and Hero don't stack

is that so? makes sense i guess. well disregard that portion then.

[Mortalislol]

1406 is pretty much the "sweet spot" level of haste that should be aimed for. At this point immolate gains an extra tick thus increasing conflag damage.

[nocturnus]

just tested it on a dummy without any proc items;

- incin average hit 8.7k
- CB average hit 10.8k

CB hits harder and has a faster cast time. The conclusion is pretty logical, on a fight longer than 1 rotation use it as soon as it's off cd. If there're still any doubts run a simcraft with the various priorities like I said before.

[Tritone496]

Problem I'm seeing is Incinerate hitting harder than chaosbolt most of the time. Plus with soulfire and backdraft Incin is better.

Yep ive also noticed this looking at max crit numbers.

[Shadowdoom]

Don't forget the spell power proc from trinket-ring-lightweave(tailor). We cast Inci more often than CB so it's possible that Inci might got higher max dmg than CB since we have more chance to cast Inci with all of those spell power procs.

[Bigtimmy]

The people over at EJ seem much less concerned with haste caps under certain conditions, and much more concerned with the thresholds at which immolate gains extra ticks. Of course, when immolate gains a full tick, then conflag (your hardest-hitting ability) hits that much harder as well. That seems to be the primary motivator for gearing for specific levels of haste these days.

To the best of my knowledge those haste thresholds (for your character sheet, but dependent upon the 5% haste buff being present to work properly) are:
-13%
-29%
-50%

In my "real world" tests, though, I found that it was impractical to go crazy and reforge/gem totally for haste (yellow=20 haste; red=10int/10haste; blue=10hit/10haste). My numbers didn't seem any better than before when I tried it, and in fact, they seemed lower on average. Gemming for int and reforging for mastery seems to be the best way to go, unless you are near one of those haste thresholds, and it isn't too much of a stretch to get there.

[nocturnus]

Don't forget the spell power proc from trinket-ring-lightweave(tailor). We cast Inci more often than CB so it's possible that Inci might got higher max dmg than CB since we have more chance to cast Inci with all of those spell power procs.

Exactly. CB hits harder and that's a fact. Its base cast time is also lower, another fact.

In general Bigtimmy, it's safe to reforge the crit/spirit on each 'haste-less' item to haste. On items with haste, you can reforge the crit/spirit to mastery. My dps jumped up quite a bit after that. The next step is finding the threshold for the next immolate tick by upgrading your gear. When you're close to the next tick and you know that a few haste gems might pull you over the line to the next tick it might be a good idea to gem for it too.

[Deleted]

To the best of my knowledge those haste thresholds (for your character sheet, but dependent upon the 5% haste buff being present to work properly) are:
-13%
-29%
-50%

I think they should be:
4.8% , 23 .8% , 42.9% , 61.9% ...
based on total haste levels of
10% , 30% , 50% , 70%

42.9% being 1406 haste, highest realistic threshold.(61.9% is 2030 haste)