Destro haste

[Bigtimmy]

Yeah, all I know for absolute certain are the 1406 and 2030 thresholds, which have been mentioned in a few places (nobody seems interested in anything below that, though I have tried to look for it). I tried gemming full haste to get to 1406, but I found it was too much of a stretch.

[Deleted]

posted elsewhere:

Assuming 5% haste buff these are required haste ratings

Ticks   GoBoA       BoA      Corr     UA     Immo

 +1       108       132       169     284     284
 +2       324       391       721     852     852
 +3       539       650      1202    1406    1406
 +4       754       875      1681    2030    2030
 +5       970      1124      2161
 +6      1185      1374
 +7      1400      1624
 +8      1616      1874
 +9      1830      2124
 +10     2046

[Dethh]

Heres the thing. Chaosbolt is on a cd so it should be this awesome spell that hits like a truck or does something at least (imo it should increase fire damage on critical strikes like pyroclasm effect). If Chaosbolt doesnt crit its pretty much a worthless spell. Also fitting in chaosbolt into a rotation is clunky. I don't want to cast chaosbolt when incin is double dipped especially if it doesn't crit. Again this is based on lvl 80 stats/talents hopefully this spell is better at 85.

[Shadowdoom]

Tell me if i get something wrong here but CB base dmg is higher than Inci , cast faster than Inci , use less mana than Inci. If you're just personally dont like the design of the spell , it's ok. But if you are talking about the fact and ability of the spell , I dont think it is a "worthless spell" and the CD of the spell is irrelevant. Cast it when the CD is up and that's it.

And yes, if it doesn't crit, it is not a high dmg spell. But if you compare to Inci that also doesn't crit -> CB dmg will still beat Inci.

[Deleted]

True, but I get Dethh's point. There's the feeling that if somethings use is limited by a cd it should feel out of the ordinary, whereas CB just feels like a slightly better incinerate. It's a short cooldown, and a definite improvement, but compare with HoG or Haunt, which have unique and distinct effects, and it feels a little underwhelming.

That said, I'm pretty happy with destro atm. It feels like there's a lot more going on than before. I hope we'll be continuing to use corruption at 85.

[Dethh]

I have a question. I see this 1406 haste # thrown around for extra tick on immolate sounds awesome. I was at 21% mastery and 1275 haste after reforging. TBH I didn't think about the extra tick for immo I was just excited to kill monsters. Now for me to get back to 1406 haste I have to reforge my trinkets back to original stats. In doing that I lost 4% mastery I went from 21% mastery to 17% mastery. Is the extra tick from immolate better than 4% more damage to ALL fire spells? About the chaosbolt thing if your incins are double dipped in backdraft and soulfire I can't see casting chaosbolt, now if you can keep that combo rolling it takes chaosbolt out of the rotation for some cooldowns making it hard for me to cast. Now add back to back instant soulfire procs and chaosbolt is being cast less and less on CD.

[Deleted]

I was forced to go destro by the drain soul nerf. But I feel that destro is getting alot like how affliction is, which is a good thing imo.
the improved soul fire buff will rarely be up in a raid situation as most fights you use hero/lust at the start and it doesn't stack, but anywhere you can exploit the proc (slimes on rotface for example) I'd lean towards not casting chaos bolt, with my current gear, incinerate is critting nearly 1k harder than chaos bolt crits.
As for dethdealer above, I'd definitely drop the mastery to reach the sweet spot of 1406 haste, because not only does it increase the conflag damage from the extra immolate tic, it will boost all of your casts, and saying you're at 1297 haste at the moment, the extra 110 haste is a big deal in my opinion
I managed to get the haste sweet spot whilst getting good mastery (18% bonus fire damage), and also maintaining just under 30% crit, and i'm really pleased with how its performing for me.
My armory

[Dethh]

I was forced to go destro by the drain soul nerf. But I feel that destro is getting alot like how affliction is, which is a good thing imo.
the improved soul fire buff will rarely be up in a raid situation as most fights you use hero/lust at the start and it doesn't stack, but anywhere you can exploit the proc (slimes on rotface for example) I'd lean towards not casting chaos bolt, with my current gear, incinerate is critting nearly 1k harder than chaos bolt crits.
As for dethdealer above, I'd definitely drop the mastery to reach the sweet spot of 1406 haste, because not only does it increase the conflag damage from the extra immolate tic, it will boost all of your casts, and saying you're at 1297 haste at the moment, the extra 110 haste is a big deal in my opinion
I managed to get the haste sweet spot whilst getting good mastery (18% bonus fire damage), and also maintaining just under 30% crit, and i'm really pleased with how its performing for me.
My armory

Yeah I'm at the same as you after restoring my trinkets to original values. I will try this and see if the extra tick is a dps up or not.

[Bigtimmy]

That said, I'm pretty happy with destro atm. It feels like there's a lot more going on than before. I hope we'll be continuing to use corruption at 85.

I've been thinking the same thing. I'm in love with the spec atm, but I have a feeling that with high levels of mastery on cata gear, there'll come a point where you omit BoD and/or corruption. I don't have the beta though... Does anyone know what kinda mastery percentages destro locks are running around with @ 85?

[nocturnus]

Anyway, to make a long story short: CB hits harder and has a shorter cast time. Conclusion, cast it whenever you can. If you still think your incinerate hits harder you're probably not testing it correctly. So run to a dummy, take off all your 'proc' gear (ring, trinket, cloak etc...) and nuke the dummy for a few minutes while logging it. Paste the log parse here and we'll have a look at it.

At 85 our haste values won't be as high as now. Automatically making mastery more interesting and corruption less interesting.

[Bigtimmy]

@Dethh

If you can get to 1406 from reforging alone, or maybe with that plus a gem or two, I'd say it's probably worth it. If you have to stretch a lot of get there, then it isn't worth the loss of other stats (in my experience).

Something the EJ people tend to leave out of the conversation when it comes to this sort of thing, though, is that when you factor in things like "real-world" latency and movement, the actual benefit of haste tends go down a bit.

[Dethh]

@Dethh

If you can get to 1406 from reforging alone, or maybe with that plus a gem or two, I'd say it's probably worth it. If you have to stretch a lot of get there, then it isn't worth the loss of other stats (in my experience).

Something the EJ people tend to leave out of the conversation when it comes to this sort of thing, though, is that when you factor in things like "real-world" latency and movement, the actual benefit of haste tends go down a bit.

I can get to 1406 without any gems or reforging. That being said I tried it tonight and well, I hearthed to reforge back to mastery that extra tick of immolate is not a dps increase. I had 1420 haste and 18% mastery and was doing less dps than 21% mastery and 1270 haste I dunno what to say. Also my armory link is in my sig below cpu-z.

[Deleted]

I can get to 1406 without any gems or reforging. That being said I tried it tonight and well, I hearthed to reforge back to mastery that extra tick of immolate is not a dps increase. I had 1420 haste and 18% mastery and was doing less dps than 21% mastery and 1270 haste I dunno what to say. Also my armory link is in my sig below cpu-z.

Less by a large amount?
According to your last log on WoL (20th october) and judging from your gear, you must be doing something wrong, as I was 2 and 3k dps higher with the stats I mentioned earlier and similar gear.
150 haste which is like 5% haste, is more DPS than 3% mastery going by these numbers:

Int=4.3956 SP=3.0227 Hit=5.9801 Crit=2.4842 Haste=3.1063 Mastery=3.1509

Source:
http://elitistjerks.com/f80/t48311-s...4_0_1_numbers/

[nocturnus]

I can get to 1406 without any gems or reforging. That being said I tried it tonight and well, I hearthed to reforge back to mastery that extra tick of immolate is not a dps increase. I had 1420 haste and 18% mastery and was doing less dps than 21% mastery and 1270 haste I dunno what to say. Also my armory link is in my sig below cpu-z.

You're doing something wrong. In your gear you should be doing more than 20k dps easily. I achieve that in a 10 man and my gear isn't as polished as yours.

http://www.marano.speedxs.nl/wow/noct1.jpg
http://www.marano.speedxs.nl/wow/noct3.jpg

[Deleted]

we're talking 3% as actually being 1.21/1.18 x 100 = 2.54%
vs 150 (4.57%)haste actually being 1.433/1.387 x 100 = 3.32%

as increases on actual dps (assuming everything scales linearly with both stats). The haste should come out on top either way. Do you mean 18% mastery or 18 mastery? because if the latter then you're looking at about 3.06% rather than 2.54%.

[Bigtimmy]

To go along with the things some others are saying, I think you should give it a little more time with the 1406 haste. It does change the timing of your rotation, and sometimes quite a lot, depending on where your haste was previously. Keep in mind also that you need the 5% haste buff in your raid, or you won't gain the extra tick.

[harky]

I can get to 1406 without any gems or reforging. That being said I tried it tonight and well, I hearthed to reforge back to mastery that extra tick of immolate is not a dps increase. I had 1420 haste and 18% mastery and was doing less dps than 21% mastery and 1270 haste I dunno what to say. Also my armory link is in my sig below cpu-z.

Looking at your guilds WoL and your armory you should probably worry more about proper glyphs/rotation/spec rather than trying to adjust specific haste values and tweak so many little things. Things like having Gloom and Doom instead of Imp Corruption, or skipping 1/3 Bane when even at 1406 it's a DPS gain... not sure what you're doing. Same goes for your numbers being thrown off by using the wrong glyphs. Incinerate is substantially worse than Imp, which is throwing off your CB/Incin figures even more. Even with it CB is doing ~5% more damage. Sometimes thinking outside the box isn't the right ideal. Incin shouldn't be >40% of your damage in 4.0. If it is you have other problems and should correct those before trying to extrapolate more data.

[Shadowdoom]

His raid dps was 231k - how high was yours?

It's not about a dps competition. It's just someone can tell there's something wrong in the rotation-talent-glyph by looking from your dps/log.

There is no corruption in his rotation...And this is the output from putting it in your rotation(from EJ) :

corruption : Count= 18.1|16.88sec DPE= 19948| 6% DPET= 17495 DPR= 86.4 pDPS=1196 TickCount=156 MissTick=0.0% Tick=1546|1263|2581 CritTick=3240|2639|5395|45.3%

[Tritone496]

It's not about a dps competition. It's just someone can tell there's something wrong in the rotation-talent-glyph by looking from your dps/log.

There is no corruption in his rotation...And this is the output from putting it in your rotation(from EJ) :

corruption : Count= 18.1|16.88sec DPE= 19948| 6% DPET= 17495 DPR= 86.4 pDPS=1196 TickCount=156 MissTick=0.0% Tick=1546|1263|2581 CritTick=3240|2639|5395|45.3%

The point was trying to make was raid dps has a huge effect on your personal dps numbers due to length of cooldown after a bloodlust/heroism. It is an inaccurate statement to say that my numbers are higher than yours so you must be doing something wrong. This is often overlooked. Also i would like to note that i have never seen the global cool down so violated since ive been playing wow. 1406 haste is way over the gcd during a backdraft and an isf proc which should be up all the time to just gain an extra tick on dots. then throw in the haste buff and it is just over the top. (and i havent evem mentioned bl/heroism). Given the wasted haste on the gcd and the mastery points you could stack instead and the extra fire damage resulting from the mastery you gain, i am not convinced that 1406 is a good number to shoot for. ( for reference @ 1127 haste during bd and isf My cast time on incinerate is .99 seconds)

[harky]

In current implementation ISF is up for ~20% of the fight and BD will not be up that full duration. This means that many casts during that time will be getting the full benefit of haste. You're looking at perhaps 15% of your Incinerates dropping under the GCD and perhaps 15% more during BL. That means 60% of the time you're still getting a very good gain from haste. Those are all factored into damage models. The fact is that if you were to run a sim with very low haste you would be told that haste is completely amazing for you. Once you reach a threshold it stops being completely stellar and settles into being a very, very good stat. Eventually (see: 1406) it drops off the chart and gets passed by other stats (Mastery).

Also raid DPS doesn't change any of the problems with the rotation, glyphs and spec. Corruption uptime of <30% is a DPS loss. Incinerate over Imp Glyph is a DPS loss. Incin being prioritized over CB is a DPS loss. D&G over Imp. Corruption is a DPS loss. Not maxing Bane while under ~2,000 haste is a DPS loss. Those are all much more significant than the difference between 1.2 and 1.4k haste, even if you don't gain any other stats in exchange. If you are using improper specs, glyphs and rotations and trying to analyze optimal stats you are going to get misleading results.

Thinking outside the box can be good, but sometimes you need to step back and figure out why something wasn't put in the box to begin with.