Ret tree vs unholy tree

[Daladiesman]

unholy is a spec with a direction,with much thought,with nearly every talent and even skill serving a purpose and feeling meaningful.
a spec which lets you spec into many fun talents like anti-magic zone.a spec which is not so bloated.
all this rounded up with a decent choice of glyphs makes the spec feel really fun and balanced.

now lets see the ret tree:
divine storm and repentance are so weak that you can practically live without them and not feel a great loss.
even in pvp(the one that matters)its not like the weak ass 1 min pseudo-cc which breaks on shadowmourne procs is such a deal breaker.
and when you are done putting your 31 points in ret,you are bascially forced to put the other points in dps talents(judgement of the pure,arbiter of the light,blazing light,seals of the pure),9 points spend,1 to go..it's like the devs really wanted to make sure that rets can't reach improved hammer of justice without gimping their dmg....

now lets see certain abilities and their usefulness for ret:

holy wrath vs divine storm:
i do not understand why the devs changed divine storm to be holy power based because they didnt want it to be part of our single target rotation,and then changed holy wrath so it must be used in it,even though it damages nearby targets albeit with the meteor effect...
most rets would gladly trade holy wrath for the real divine storm again(even if it has a meteor effect..)

divine light and holy light:3 sec base cast time and either horrible mana cost,or horrible healoutput.
word of glory: horrible opportunity cost,it would be halfway decent if you could only cast it while you have 3 holy power,but it wouldn't consume any of it.6 sec cooldown.but in its current incarnation it would be like a warlock having to sacrifice his chaos bolt so he could use his healthstone...

divine plea: no..instead of changing it to restore like 25-30% of the base mana and getting rid of the 50% healing debuff,so it would be halfway decent for ret and prot,and still usefull although not op for holy,they change it to 10% of total mana with the debuff,effectively killing it for ret and prot...

sacred shield:a spell with synergy,was fun to use and helpful...gone

judgement of light: seriously how could a dev even think of removing the 1%(used to be 2%) heal from judgement of light.its not like this thing made us good,but you can only remove so much before you totally cripple a spec in its self defense...

seal of truth: still only stacks from autoattacks,i dont knwo what to say...

consecration: wow,now you cant even hope to detect a rogue under it without wasting 40% of your mana for it.you can only hopy to do so every 30 secs aswell..

retribution aura: worthless..

seal of justice: may my autoattacks(oh and my crusader strike!!) punish you to 100% speed instead of 105(ok 115 for some classes)
the loss of dmg is totally worth this feat!


guardian of the ancient kings: fear his 1.5k autoattacks for 12 sec,giving you a weak ass str buff afterwards. atleast you can use him every 5 min...

seriously guys...ret hasn't been made rewarding for the good player,it has been simply gutted in usefullness in various skills.
instead for skills in the other tree to supplement you,which is the case with unholy dks,the skills in the other trees(mainly holy) are out of synch with ret.rets dps will be viable in pve,no doubt,but at a price of a whac-a-mole-ish RNGotation and a crushed viability in pvp.

/cptobvious

[obezy]

ret does have a thing going for them, its just that are dmg isnt up to par with others. the heroic kingslayer doesnt really mean anything with the changes, but if you can shake your friends hand for me thatd be great

[Slickx]

ret does have a thing going for them, its just that are dmg isnt up to par with others. the heroic kingslayer doesnt really mean anything with the changes, but if you can shake your friends hand for me thatd be great

your sig says i am the kingslayer

....really?

[ammor]

your sig says i am the kingslayer

....really?

Off Topic, he obviously is,

On topic, the easiest way to beat an UH DK (Or anyone) pop wings, Spam Hammer of Wrath=Win, its pretty simple, just don't use it aganist AM :O

[Brael]

Wrong forums, Blizzard suggestion forums are that way ------------->

[Elovan]

This is hardly a ret vs unholy comparison thread (which would be a dumb thing to do in the first place). You won't generate much meaningful discussion here because you just say things are bad without going in to reasons why.

If you did have logical reasons for your complaints and wrote them in language that wasn't whiney, I would still disagree with you because I currently find Ret to be a fun spec to play and I like the changes. Also, you seem to have a very poor grasp on the reasons why these necessary changes were made, as most of your suggestions just revert everything back to Wrath status. And Divine Plea returning 25-30% mana with no healing debuff isn't OP? That is incredibly OP, and I don't even understand why you as ret care about the healing debuff or are having such huge mana issues that you need it to be buffed that much.

---------- Post added 2010-10-19 at 03:03 AM ----------

Off Topic, he obviously is,

On topic, the easiest way to beat an UH DK (Or anyone) pop wings, Spam Hammer of Wrath=Win, its pretty simple, just don't use it aganist AM :O

That's twice today I've read posts that did not even make an effort to pretend they read the OP of the thread they posted in.

[Foibles]

If you don't think Unholy is bloated, then I'd like to see what you think is bloated.

[DaGhostDS]

go play an unholy dk and leave us alone then.
I imagine you are the kind of guy who want the ret from wotlk back?

[Snes]

Wrong forums, Blizzard suggestion forums are that way ------------->

Pretty much this.

I can see some of the arguments from the OP; my suggestion for Repentance would be combine it with a talent in the tree for PvP use, such as:

Long Arm of the Law:
Your Judgement has a 50/100% chance to increase your movement speed by 70% for 4 sec when used on targets at or further than 15 yards from you, and your Repentance has a 50/100% chance to slow the target's movement and casting speed by 30% for 6 sec when it breaks from damage or dispel mechanics.

Something along those lines. I'm fine with the flow of the tree overall though, I like having to pick utility talents in PvE too.

[Foibles]

Pretty much this.

I can see some of the arguments from the OP; my suggestion for Repentance would be combine it with a talent in the tree for PvP use, such as:

Long Arm of the Law:
Your Judgement has a 50/100% chance to increase your movement speed by 70% for 4 sec when used on targets at or further than 15 yards from you, and your Repentance has a 50/100% chance to slow the target's movement and casting speed by 30% for 6 sec when it breaks from damage or dispel mechanics.

Something along those lines. I'm fine with the flow of the tree overall though, I like having to pick utility talents in PvE too.

That would be cool. Work a bit like Blackjack from the Assassination tree.

[Luthius]

go play an unholy dk and leave us alone then.
I imagine you are the kind of guy who want the ret from wotlk back?

This.
/signed with blood

[Fiddlesnarf]

Meh, I'm fairly content with Ret atm, though I guarantee I'll hate it once I get Inquisition.
...fuckin' hate that spell mechanic.

[Wysmark]

Well I agree with some of it.


Repentance: 1 min cd is kinda too long to be a real CC in pvp or pve either one. Honestly make it 30 secs or remove the damn thing.

Holy wrath: You are right there. Removing an aoe from our single target rotation to add another? Strange at best.

Utility: Yes that is the lamo thing. You cant afford utility/fun talents because there's dps talents to get in other trees. Ret tree is pretty much set in stone (repentance is close to being the obly non-mandatory thing in my book)

Seal of truth: Still makes fight like PP annoying, but then sealswitching was always part of our spec.

Guardian: Its not a core skill so it dont have to be so powerful. Think of it as a fun button with a little dps, and really as blowing a cd. Dunno how much shammies feral spirits hit for, but I imagine its along those lines.

Word of glory is fine. You arent a healer per se. You have a fairly powerful instant heal that can save your as. You being dead would gimp dps more than losing 3 holy power

Sacred shield: I lament the loss of this, but i understand. This and JoL was part of what made us a 1-man army and able to solo a lot of old content/elites. I can understand them doing away with this, but ehm they rather need to do it for DK's too.

Inquisition: Noone at all likes this mechanic since it seems aimed at robbing us of any kind of burst in pvp, and is hella boring to begin with. There's no stopping it sadly



But lets rejoice at what we do get

Long arm of the law is a great mechanic. yes it can be countered by clever play and hunters are still gonna kite us, but thats just playing your class.

The buffing nightmare is over!

The dmg bonus you get from casting word of glory on others make offhealing a viability which is great.

Etc.

Overall, there are some stupid thing...holy wrath, inquisition and the sheer number of randomness inherent in Holy power being chief among them, but its good...we'll kill stuff, you'll see

[Daladiesman]

This is hardly a ret vs unholy comparison thread (which would be a dumb thing to do in the first place). You won't generate much meaningful discussion here because you just say things are bad without going in to reasons why.

If you did have logical reasons for your complaints and wrote them in language that wasn't whiney, I would still disagree with you because I currently find Ret to be a fun spec to play and I like the changes. Also, you seem to have a very poor grasp on the reasons why these necessary changes were made, as most of your suggestions just revert everything back to Wrath status.


---------- Post added 2010-10-19 at 03:03 AM ----------



.

you obviously lack much insight of ret and you obviously lack the wits to comprehend the things i said in this thread.
you are not worth my time.

[DaGhostDS]

you obviously lack much insight of ret and you obviously lack the wits to comprehend the things i said in this thread.
you are not worth my time.

no you are not worth our time

/cast exorcism, be gone fool!

[Daladiesman]

no you are not worth our time

/cast exorcism, be gone fool!

i love how mmo champ is crowded with clueless 251 heroes.your opinions on nerfed content after 9 months and mindless bg zergs clearly do matter
alot!

/endsarcasm

[Rlyskilled]

I thought this was going to be a talent tree comparison but you're just whining about ret post 4.0 in pvp at level 80, as if you expect it to be balanced or something. Heh, you're funny.

[CrowShammy]

seal of justice: may my autoattacks(oh and my crusader strike!!) punish you to 100% speed instead of 105(ok 115 for some classes)
the loss of dmg is totally worth this feat!
/cptobvious

go ahead, get on a rated bg team at 85, and DON'T use seal of justice on that druid in travel form in wsg running your flag to cap. stick to truth, hit him once, and watch him leave you in the dust. he may cap, but at least you did more damage to him w/ the one auto attack you got in.
or, you can use that little bit of situational utility to help your team out and keep him from running at top speed.

[Xart]

i love how mmo champ is crowded with clueless 251 heroes.your opinions on nerfed content after 9 months and mindless bg zergs clearly do matter
alot!

/endsarcasm

I read you post. All I saw was a loads of whine. If you can't stand that ret skill cap gone up and the class is abit underpowered atm. Go reroll. We don't want you.

[Veyne]

you obviously lack much insight of ret and you obviously lack the wits to comprehend the things i said in this thread.
you are not worth my time.

Says "Da ladies man."

Seriously, any hopes of intelligence coming from someone like this should've quickly been dashed by their name.

I have no idea how you could possibly look anyone in the eye with a straight face and say that Retribution is more bloated than Unholy. Retribution's tree is fine. Coming out of Wrath of the Lich King, I absolutely love a lot of the changes done to Retribution as a whole.

All you are doing is pointless whining and complaining. And then you wonder why we reply to you the way we do? Maybe if you used a fraction of your supposed superior intellect, perhaps just MAYBE you could offer some opinions on how it could be better, instead of just shouting "RET TREE SUCKS!"