Cata Raids Undertuned

[Yazus]

People need to stop this seriously...

1) BoT is the first T11 raid and its assumed you will run it in heroics blues/some rep epic.
2) Blizzard wants to test mechanics first, then they will probably tune them up
3) BWD will be more difficult than BoT
4) Skywall will be more difficult than BWD

[Heenk]

2) Blizzard wants to test mechanics first, then they will probably tune them up

We already covered this

[Enkidulgaa]

1) BoT is the first T11 raid and its assumed you will run it in heroics blues/some rep epic.

So I guess the people on beta already have T12 or something? If these raids are undertuned even in the right gear, they will become a joke within weeks when people start to overgear them.

2) Blizzard wants to test mechanics first, then they will probably tune them up

The same was said about WRATH, now look what happened.

[Cairhien]

I have personally done every raid that has been available on Beta so far, on a mix of 10 and 25 (faction change abuse ftw). On 25 man especially, they are hard. This could be attributed to not really knowing the specificities of the encounters etc, but on the whole, they are difficult encounters. Definitely harder than Naxx was at least.

[link064]

BLAST FROM THE PAST!

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-at-the-moment.

This was a thread I made 2 years ago during WotLK beta complaining about how easy the heroics were. Note how the excuses are exactly the same as today.

A couple of things:

1) Your post was about facerolling heroics, not raids. While you can compare what people are saying now to then, there is a significant difference between heroics and raids. Additionally, your point becomes even more moot when you look at Cat heroics.
2) The heroics were eventually tuned better, just not to the point that some of the elitist idiots wanted.
3) You clearly didn't play on the 3.3 PTR. A lot of the raid bosses were trivial (whats this stacking debuff thing on Festergut?) and some were very hard. It was eventually tuned properly (despite all the talk of facerolling it on normal mode).
4) The "excuses" are not the same. Even just on the first page, there are quite a varying array of responses. I would continue and give examples of the differences, but I'll leave that up to the non-lobotomized portion of the forum-goers.

[Enkidulgaa]

1) Your post was about facerolling heroics, not raids. While you can compare what people are saying now to then, there is a significant difference between heroics and raids. Additionally, your point becomes even more moot when you look at Cat heroics.

The thread he linked mentioned Naxx too, reading is hard bro.

2) The heroics were eventually tuned better, just not to the point that some of the elitist idiots wanted.

WRATH heroics were a joke. They were not "undertuned", they were a complete joke since the very start. Even average players were dissappointed. Funny how everybody that speaks against pure, 100% faceroll heroics is an elitist.

4) The "excuses" are not the same. Even just on the first page, there are quite a varying array of responses. I would continue and give examples of the differences, but I'll leave that up to the non-lobotomized portion of the forum-goers.

Did you just say you are lobotomized? Or did you say that he should give himself examples that undermine his own post?

[Nigeldruid]

You have to remember a few things:

1) It's beta testing. It's mainly there to test mechanics and to see how people get around certain parts of a fight. This means they might tune down damage on the tank and remove the enrage timer to get as much testing done as possible. The tuning part of making a raid is probably the easiest as a lot of it is calculable and don't require thousands of people testing it. This doesn't mean Blizzard haven't gotten it wrong in the past tho.

2) It's normal modes in the very first tier. While this argument is getting old it still holds true.

3) What you see on those videos is kills. Go to Youtube and look at some fights and they don't actually look very difficult because it's the kills.

4) In direct reference to the "Melee standing in whirlwind", that kinda stuff is of the past. Blizzard have realized that they cannot make encounters difficult by letting the boss whirlwind killing all the melee. What will people do? Stack ranged. Also the boss was whirl winding A LOT of the time which would make melee very inefficient if they couldn't stay in.

5) Last but not least with the class revamps healing throughput has gone down a lot. This means what looks like a lot of raid damage in Wotlk would be considered unhealable in Cata.

I agree that the fights did look very easy, but lets wait and see till we stand there ourselves

[Daelos]

Somehow I knew that OP came to the "OMG EZMODE RAIDZ AGAIN" conclusion without even trying it himself..

And as has been mentioned many times before, it's BETA, it's normal mode of the first tier.

[link064]

The thread he linked mentioned Naxx too, reading is hard bro.

The thread was about heroics. Reading is hard bro. (u c wut i did thur?)

WRATH heroics were a joke. They were not "undertuned", they were a complete joke since the very start. Even average players were dissappointed. Funny how everybody that speaks against pure, 100% faceroll heroics is an elitist.

I'm not sure what "average players" you played with, but plenty of people had trouble with the new heroics. You can't tell me that ALL of the heroics were faceroll. Oh, thats right, people stopped running Oculus because it was too faceroll. However, as I said, they just were not tuned hard enough to please the hardcore crowd. Was that too hard to understand? Reading is hard bro.

Did you just say you are lobotomized? Or did you say that he should give himself examples that undermine his own post?

No, I was just excluding you. That is all.

[Deleted]

The 'public' raid testing been going on for so short time I wouldn't get concerned yet..but yeah..if they for some silly reason released them like that, qq.

[Perished]

BLAST FROM THE PAST!

This was a thread I made 2 years ago during WotLK beta complaining about how easy the heroics were. Note how the excuses are exactly the same as today.

Awesome, but we arent talking about Heroics, we are talking about the ENTRY lvl raids.

[Deleted]

You can complain when Cataclysm comes out and the raids still indeed comes out as undertuned. As others have already said, it's beta and the public raid testing started just couple days ago.

Other than that, the bosses look kinda cool to me. Though, I'm not sure about the difficulty.

[Perished]

You can complain when Cataclysm comes out and the raids still indeed comes out as undertuned. As others have already said, it's beta and the public raid testing started just couple days ago.

Other than that, the bosses look kinda cool to me. Though, I'm not sure about the difficulty.

I expect them to come out a little undertuned, will they be pugable though? Absolutely not (Atleast not at release). These are entry lvl raids,and I am loving a lot of these mechanics that are being used on these fights and im really looking forward to doing these fights when Cata hits.

[sd78]

A couple of things:

1) Your post was about facerolling heroics, not raids. While you can compare what people are saying now to then, there is a significant difference between heroics and raids. Additionally, your point becomes even more moot when you look at Cat heroics.
2) The heroics were eventually tuned better, just not to the point that some of the elitist idiots wanted.
3) You clearly didn't play on the 3.3 PTR. A lot of the raid bosses were trivial (whats this stacking debuff thing on Festergut?) and some were very hard. It was eventually tuned properly (despite all the talk of facerolling it on normal mode).
4) The "excuses" are not the same. Even just on the first page, there are quite a varying array of responses. I would continue and give examples of the differences, but I'll leave that up to the non-lobotomized portion of the forum-goers.

If you actually bothered to read the thread, I made several references to raids being undertuned. The thread was primarily about Heroics because I had run them extensively (and already had around half of the achievements), but had only done a couple of raids.

Heroics went live EXACTLY THE SAME as they were in late beta.

The excuses were the same. The content was either deliberately undertuned 'for testing purposes' or the beta players represented the elite 1% of WoW's population. Look what happened.

---------- Post added 2010-10-21 at 03:49 AM ----------

Oh, thats right, people stopped running Oculus because it was too faceroll. However, as I said, they just were not tuned hard enough to please the hardcore crowd. Was that too hard to understand? Reading is hard bro.

People stopped running Occulus because the final boss couldn't be facerolled by Bads who massively outgeared the encounter.

[Deleted]

Yes, most Beta encounters are very undertuned, even for normal-modes. Especially the 10 mans.

Stuff to consider:
-Most Beta raids are closer to PuGs then organized raids.
-Very few raids actually get to test this stuff with their veteran raid-rooster.
-Pre-mades have gear you'd be wearing for your first 2-3 raids, not for the following 4-10.
-People are playing with high pings, often up to 500.
-Killing a boss after 3 pulls doesn't qualify as challenging.

The biggest problem is though that 10 mans are significantly easier than 25 mans! If things stay as they are, even progression focused 25 mans will have a hard time justifying their efforts.

[nekobaka]

I don't think Ulduar was harder at all. Mimiron and Yogg-Saron were very difficulty encounters for sure, but they were toward the end of Ulduar and rightly so. Maybe when Ulduar was first released, that very first week. It was way overtuned, especially on 10m mode. But overall post nerf, it was an easier instance than ICC.

Now ToC on the otherhand, that was improperly tuned, since that was much easier than Ulduar and should have been the 2nd tier of raiding. Ulduar should have been Tier 9.

From what I saw with mainly about the 10 mans was about the same between ulduar and ICC. I just found ulduar to be more fun than ICC. The repetitively early application of the buff in ICC does tend to give ICC an overall easy feeling residual feeling to everyone as that is what they got accustomed to. The biggest issue Ive seen between ulduar and ICC was how dumb ToC made people. It personally lowered my skill level and set me back, even from doing ToGC on 10, I still was not prepared for ICC heroics in level of sharpness. Blizzard went so fail with ToC, the only reason they made it easier was to be a new start in raiding which well was just fail as a core Tier raid, I hope Blizzard never does that again and if they want to do a similar thing in Cata they need to make it a small side raid.

When it comes to normal mode raids, I hope Blizzard keeps the requirement that all raiders know how to play their class and not stand in fire as a baseline to downing bosses. Sure the starter raid can give some slack though this is raiding which is a progression off of five mans which should be teaching the players how to play their class and that dangerous boss abilities are well dangerous. The starter raids should be there to help teach playing on a raid level with more players and working with that larger number of players to complete a task with out overwhelming them. What they should not do is just let them sit in a fire and die, get handed loot and show up the next week doing the same thing. That is not team playing, that is just griefing those who actually are trying to play the game.

[zaneosak]

Normal mode encounters are made to be fairly faceroll, it's the heroic stuff you want to keep your eye on.

This is what annoys me about people saying Wrath was faceroll.

Was Sarth 3D faceroll?
Was Yogg+0 faceroll?
Was Anub Hc faceroll?
Was LK hc faceroll?

No.

So 4 of the 46 encounters in Wrath (counting normal and heroic as ONE encounter) were not faceroll? Is that supposed to be you proving wrath was or wasn't face roll? I'm confused.

[Swizzle]

WRATH heroics were a joke. They were not "undertuned", they were a complete joke since the very start. Even average players were dissappointed. Funny how everybody that speaks against pure, 100% faceroll heroics is an elitist.

"Release" Loken would like a word with you.

[Enkidulgaa]

"Release" Loken would like a word with you.

I healed that guy with an average iLevel 180 group on my shaman without any challenge. Had to pop a mana potion though.
I guess every healer could have done that

[Swizzle]

I healed that guy with an average iLevel 180 group on my shaman without any challenge. Had to pop a mana potion though.
I guess every healer could have done that

And I once slept with Halle Berry back in high school. Guess every guy could have done that.