2pc T10+2pc T9 vs 4pc T10

[frickinaye08]

First time poster here, so please don't haze me to bad for a being a noob.

I just picked up sanctified legs from VoA yesterday and had enough JP's to buy the reg 251 helm. I was using the 245 (t9) legs and helm for the 2 pc bonus (5% increased damage), along with the 2pc T10 (5% increased bonus, after patch 4.0.1.)

So i now have the option of switching it up to full tier 10 4pc bonus... However, my character screen shows a loss of about 100 dps when i put on my full 4pc T10. Elitist jerks had a breakdown of when to switch to full tier 10, but with the release of 4.0.1 it is gone, along with anything else that had the info.

I know its late in the game to be making this change (i took a break from raiding for a while, and am now starting to get back into it). I would just hate to take such a significant dps loss because of a bad uninformed decision. Since the patch, is it worth keeping the 2PC bonuses, or should i just switch it completely over to T10?Any help would be great , thanks

[Tobley]

In 3.3.3 you would only drop 2T9 for 4T10.
This was because 2T9 allowed your Vengeance/Corruption stack to crit.
In 4.0.1 this is baseline and the 2T9 bonus has been changed to an overall 5% damage increase.
Seal damage is pretty high right now so 4T10 is still better by quite a bit than 2T9.

So go with 4T10.
Even if you were to use 2T9 and 2T10, I'm fairly sure that the increase in stats would be greater than a 5% damage increase, and that's without the 10% judgement and seal damage.

[Nillo]

1) This was because 2T9 allowed your Vengeance/Corruption stack to crit.
2) I'm fairly sure that the increase in stats would be greater than a 5% damage increase
3) and that's without the 10% judgement and seal damage.

1) It allowed Righteous Vengeance to crit ..... which was usually less than 5% damage increase (unless your crit level was extremely high)
2) I'm fairly sure, that this is only true if you go from a lower tier t9 set to a higher tier t10 set - with 245 vs 251 the stat increase is almost nonexistant
3) Which is still less than a 5% damage increase. (3-4%ish)

Afaik the difference shouldn't be very high.

[Ryme]

I was thinking about this myself, as I recall, the dps difference between 2 piece 258 2 piece 277 and 4 piece 277 was very small indeed.

I wouldn't be very surprised if you did find that now 2T9+2T10 > 4T10 assuming the effects stack.

[Krekko]

1) It allowed Righteous Vengeance to crit ..... which was usually less than 5% damage increase (unless your crit level was extremely high)
2) I'm fairly sure, that this is only true if you go from a lower tier t9 set to a higher tier t10 set - with 245 vs 251 the stat increase is almost nonexistant
3) Which is still less than a 5% damage increase. (3-4%ish)

Afaik the difference shouldn't be very high.

You needed Heroic ToC 25 man T9 to make keeping the 2 Piece worth it for 4 piece. Reg 25 and the badge one were not worth it if I recall correctly.

Go with 4 piece t10 OP

[frickinaye08]

Thanks for the help gents, have a little more info, please see below

[Deleted]

he's talking about 264/251 and double 245.

10% increased seal and judge damage on DBS (melee friendly fight) on a top ret DPS is currently not that much. censure is 13%, SoT is 11% and and JoT is 4%. i'm not even sure if SoC also is affected, but even if it is, we're talking about 3.4% DPS increase. if not, we are talking about a 2.8% DPS increase. i'm not that sure if 6 itemlevels per item for 2 items outweighs a 1.6-2.2% DPS increase.

[Arianwen]

I was curious about 2p T10 (264) with 3 offsets (277 Festering Fingerguards, 277 Raging Behemoth, 264 Leggings of Painful Death) vs 4p T10 (264) + Festering Fingerguards. As Nzall stated seals/judge are doing minimal damage and I'm not sure that 10% beats out the extra stats/sockets. Everyone has always just assumed 4p is better and I'd prefer a little math to see which actually is.

[frickinaye08]

Well, after some dummy testing I have a little more info. I hit the dummy for around 5 min each time (still learning the new rotation etc) first time did it in full 4pc t10, i averaged appx 7k dps self buffed.

I swapped the 251 t10 head for the t9 245 helm, and 264 gloves (flesh rending gauntlets with blacksmith socket)for the t9 245 gloves. I had an increase in appx dps of 300-500 (7.3k-7.5k)

I did this several times because i know our dps is reliant on procs right now so some difference may always occur. I believe the 5% dps increase stacks, so with 2pc i get a total of 10% overall dps increase, while 4pc t10 is 10% to seals etc. I'm not sure at this juncture if it is worth losing the 5% overall dps increase until I get a token or two and upgrade to 264 t10.

I may be all screwed up though, so i will link my armory at the risk of ridicule, any other advice would be greatly appreciated.
Well nm about posting a link, still to new to the forums, but my char's name is frickinaye, if you have the time to look it up. Thanks again

[Deleted]

I made a thread about this not so long ago, and got nothing but useless remarks about it. So it's nice to see a thread that has actually had relevant and helpful feedback.

So what people are saying it that it depends on the Ilvl of the upgrades? Im using T9 232 chest and T9 245 legs, with T10 251 Shoulder and T10 264 Hands.

If I move to 251 x3 (possibly soon 2 at 264 with my new guild) and the 264 gloves, would it be viable to drop the crappy 232 chest and the not so crappy, but still not up there 245 legs of T9 in aid of the upgrade to the 251 4pc (possibly 264 2pc 251 2pc).

This has been something Ive been considering for some time, and thankfully others have too .

HAlatosis

[Badpaladin]

4pc is addative, and it affects a good deal of damage. Double 2pc should be multiplicative so you'd only see a 7.5% increase with inferior stats(going from 264 to 277 in four to five slots is about a 5% addative dps increase).

Your answer? Run a simulator. Just whacking a dummy and going by what "feels right" isn't what you should do.

[Deleted]

Can you link, or just type, a URL of any simulators etc?

That being said, do any sims account for reforging? Or oes it just take a carbon copy of your armory, for xample?

Halatosis

[Badpaladin]

The best spreadsheet is probably the one exemplar on ej writes, maybe pm him for a link? Honestly I'm not up to date on rawr at the moment or other spreadsheets(redcape writes a good one too) but it saves you a lot of calculations.

As for refitting, I think it's likely they don't and you would have to manually adjust your stats. Good news is all you have to do is hit enter and you've got practically all the information you need.

[frickinaye08]

The stuff on ej is pretty much down atm as far as i've noticed. That is the primary reason i've posted this question, all the stat weights etc, are out of whack for the time being. I was just looking for some advice, and trying to provide as much raw data as i can. I chose a dummy for that reason. No macros, no mods etc. Just the rotation i've been provided by ej at lvl 80, on a level 83 a dummy. My rotation on my dummy, simple as i can provide.

I dont have any 277 gear, and i do not think i will have any soon if ever. Just looking for advice on my current situation, the 2pc (245) and 2pc (264) seems to be a bit more dps, just on a dummy, not in a simulator or on a raid boss. I would like to go into a raid with the optimal gear configuration for my current situation. By no means optimal, but the best i can do right now.

Thanks once again guys, any info is very helpful at this point

[Badpaladin]

Hmm. I suppose it depends on what pieces you're replacing. Is the 7.5% increase with the loss of flat 10% censure/sot/judgment and the potential very large state loss? I should tell Mac or req to log in my account and test various setups with 277/264/258. Maybe it's better for you at lower gear levels?

[frickinaye08]

Please check out my armory, cant link, b/c i'm still a junior (new to posting) name is frickinaye on doomhammer. I have the 245 pieces on currently (hands and helmet). I would replace them with 264 gloves (flesh rending gauntlets with b/s gem) and 251 tier 10 helm. At my lower gear level seems to be a loss to replace the 245. Not to much of a stat loss, off the top of my head (not that accurate) about 30-40 str, i believe. It would make my gear score go up (heh heh, wouldnt be asking these questions if i were concerned with that). My gear is crap compared to most, just looking to optimize for my situation. Thanks again.

---------- Post added 2010-10-21 at 11:10 PM ----------

I guess the armory isnt showing my reforging either

[Deleted]

Your answer? Run a simulator. Just whacking a dummy and going by what "feels right" isn't what you should do.

Saying that dummy tests won't matter is like saying that shooting range performance won't tell anything about your shooting skills. Obviously it's not the whole truth, but is a quite good indicator nevertheless. Relying on addons calculating theoretical results certainly isn't what you should do. Personal testing beats that kind of things if you know what you are doing. And if you don't, simulator won't help even that little.

[Deleted]

Saying that dummy tests won't matter is like saying that shooting range performance won't tell anything about your shooting skills. Obviously it's not the whole truth, but is a quite good indicator nevertheless. Relying on addons calculating theoretical results certainly isn't what you should do. Personal testing beats that kind of things if you know what you are doing. And if you don't, simulator won't help even that little.

target dummies have relatively less seal damage due to the absence of the 10% attack speed buff, 5% spell haste buff (more CS hits), the 8% spell damage buff, 4% physical damage taken debuff, 12% armor debuff (SoC) and the 10% AP buff. this means that on a target dummy, the 4PT10 isn't worth as much. you really need to compare logs versus each other to get a decent comparison.

i'm currently working up a comparison to compare 4PT10-251 with 2X251;2X245 (as in the OP example) with rest in 251 gear. don't have time to finish it right now, but i'll come back to this later.

edit: comparison shows it's a minor difference in stats.
http://www.wowhead.com/compare?items...23:50977:49999
on a setup of 2K STR you have a 34 STR, 32 crit and 6 haste difference. it's pretty close.

it really depends on the quality of your tier pieces and the potency of the remaining gear. better offset pieces mean the bonuses scale better than the raw stats. worse offset pieces mean the raw stats are a bigger influence.

[Nillo]

Double 2pc should be multiplicative so you'd only see a 7.5% increase with inferior stats

What did you smoke when you wrote this?
1.05*1.05 = 1.1025 => 10.25% increase for both bonuses if they are multiplied (or 10.0% if they are additive)

---------- Post added 2010-10-22 at 03:10 PM ----------

Relying on addons calculating theoretical results certainly isn't what you should do. Personal testing beats that kind of things if you know what you are doing. And if you don't, simulator won't help even that little.

Relying on you is like trying to run through a wall.

[Deleted]

So are the bonuses additive of multiplicative?

7.5% or 10%? lol

if its 7.5% I would say 4pc is probably more beneficial, due to stats of the higher gear levels, but 10% im not so sure.

Halatosis