Why do people think DKs can't tank?

[Deleted]

Compared to say, a paladin, a DK does take more damage being that their mitigation works differently. Basically, you have to click it for it to work.
From a healers PoV, in 4.0.1 their health will yo-yo, it's something you have to keep on top of and I do think that DK's have had a bit more of a raw deal than those shield bearers. Not healed a big-fat-bear since the patch hit, would be interesting to compare.

[Bluey111]

DK tanks are so bad that I left a group that I was tanking...but seriously, I'm not sure how DK tanks are now that 4.01 has hit, but in the past they've always had a tendency to take big spikes in damage which means healers have to actually pay attention. In other words, its a healer problem, not a DK problem.

this, if you are a healer you will notice that dks tend to take more damage then other tanks (most likely the lack of a shield and unable to block or something) it is a pain to heal DKs sometimes but they arent too bad

[Deleted]

You Kidding Me? How can you say that DK tanks take alot of dmg? DK tanks are those who take the least possible damage! They got enough cooldowns (vampiric blood, Icebound, Runetap, everything ) .. And not only that, the most bosses have magic abilyties hitting for 30-40k+ they just pop anti-magic shell and there u are, I enjoy healing DKs most of all!

[Deleted]

OK, so I have a DK tank, 45k health very cappable of off tanking 25man ICC, I'v done it before. Why then do I find so many people who say, the DK's cant tank, or leave Heroics becouse I'm a DK. Whast peoples problem? Is it becasue poeple r pissed cause I started at 50 or what. CAuse I'm a fine tank, I have no agro problems ( execpt a Shadowmourn wielding pally, or a REALLY gear bomkin), I dont take rediculas damage I just dont get it. Sorry about any spelling mistakes, just quickly throwing this post in.

Because dks are harder to tank with. They are fine mechanics wise but the devs at HQ only look at math and rotations, they don't really consider the average player might not do the perfect rotation or that he/she might find it annoying to plan rune cds ahead so if some mobs spawn out nowhere and everything is on cd, it doesn't mean a wipe.

Dk tanks are harder to play because of their limited resources. Paladins, warriors and druid don't really need to worry about mana/rage as it's plenty but if a dk gets all his runes on cd, it's a wipe.

This isn't as blatant in boss fights but at phases with multiple spawning adds, most dk tanks fail.

[SpacedOut]

Because DKs are actually very squishy since 4.0.1, and it's a situation that needs to be fixed. No, it's not because the DK I'm playing with is bad, he is very good. Since the patch, though, we've had to have one of our rogues tank on his paladin in substitute for the DK, because he just gets owned by (for example) the shambling horrors in p1 of LK Hc. Heck, we've even stopped using him to tank the adds on halion Hc, because healers have to focus him too hard if he does.

[Deleted]

I think that depends on gear as well. Entering a random with 64k unbuffed hp as a dk tend to get ppl to stfu.
Its not just the class, even I do admit theres shiiitloads of bad dks once u go OL.
Leveled as tank and been flamed on warr, dk, dr00d and pala.

I do like the new changes to blood shield, that alone will sort out the bads. Atm dk's are by far the hardest class to raid tank with, actually offering choices between tps or staying alive. Warriors are still left in spam land

[Deleted]

I do ICC 25 heroic with my guild and we do have several tanks. Last thursday we did saurfang hc(blame servers for being dodgy on wednesday) and we went with a pala and dk tank. The paladin tank was easy to keep up but the dk tank seemed to take a shitload of dmg. Yes we had a few wipes because of that, the pala is just a slight bit better geared then the dk

[Rosechyld]

Simple answer ---

Most people think DK's can't tank, because the vast majority of DK players can't PLAY. They pick up the game fresh with a level 58 character, and icey touch their way to end game, then go in "tank presence" and queue for heroics. Then we healers get bitched at when they die, repeatedly.

Yes, not ALL DK's are bad. Yes, not ALL dk's do this. Yes, DK's can be great tanks. That's not the point though. The point is, when you're (as a healer) trying to chain heroics, or helll just get your daily done, and instantly get a DK with less then 26k health and wielding a green weapon - you run the other direction.

I know some absolutely stellar DK tanks. Doesn't mean squat.

[ComputerNerd]

The opinion is less about the role, but the bad reputation created for the class in part by blizzard's approach to the class, and largely due to the players.
Hundreds of Arthas, DK, Lichking variations in the first few weeks did a huge amount of damage to their reputation as a class.
Starting at 55 does mean a lot skip into the class and never really learn the basics.
I agree the hero class tag is misleading with some players genuinely believing that makes them better.
Personally I have yet to get mine past 61.

A class is not defined by the good players, but by the awful ones.

[eternalwhitemoon]

Bad experiences with individuals taint players' conception of the class as a whole.

DK tanks can be amazing. But I've also had some amazingly dumb tanks.

Example: tanking Toravon on my druid with a DK. I was supposed to be taking him second, so I autoattack just a couple times (wanted to give the DK a good threat lead before I mangle/lacerate/etc) and guess what? I pull off the DK and he immediately whispers me "dude lay off". I whisper back "I'm not trying, it's just autoattacks". So after some struggle the DK takes him off and keeps him off. I go to taunt off him at 3 stacks and guess what? Immune! Apparently he'd been spamming Dark Command in an effort to keep threat off me (which now meant I could not taunt off him and he was bound for certain doom, AND he was completely oblivious to how taunts actually work).

A few bad apples ruins it for everyone so to speak. Then again, I'm sure people could find the same level of stupidity from a druid/pally/warrior tank too, so really the people "discriminating" for you being a DK are just being oblivious.

It doesn't help that you start at 55, a lot of people believe that being in the role for lower levels gives you more practice at it.

[thoxrendar]

I leveled a DK as soon as I was able (read when wrath came out). I purposed to make it my first tank (healer/range DPS before that) and first melee DPS. I've never gotten much flak for my DPS whether good or bad, but my tanking role has been harassed from day one. No, I didn't try to tank in outland or even in Northrend until level 80. I got full geared before I stepped into a heroic. I tended not to get harped on for my class but for my spec: blood. "Frost is the tanking spec!" they'd say. "Blood takes too much damage!" they'd say. And then (given the chance) I'd prove them wrong. I've not tanked everything through to LK due to time constraints and a hiatus from the game, but when I do tank, it generally goes well. Now that blood is the tank spec as per Blizz, I have less learning to do as I work through class changes since the patch. Is my damage intake spiky? Of course! Blizz themselves have said that's part of the DK tank playstyle. They heal themselves and have blood shield and have super awesome cooldowns to compensate. I reiterate, we are more spiky in our damage intake, but we bring more to the table in self-heals and mitigation talents than most other classes and that tends to translate (in the hands of a good DK player) into less healing from the healers overall, even though they may need to pay more attention.

[RTP212]

Possibly because when DKs first came out all the lvl 55 newbies who had never even done a raid much less tanked a heroic quickly got through outland where their DK starter gear made them faceroll every instance they then quickly got to northrend picked up some quest blues and greens and started trying to tank heroics without having any real clue as to wtf they were doing, and for the most part 9/10 times they would fail horribly.

So thanks to this DKs have the stigma of being horrible tanks, or just horrible period. Add in the fact that these players have had over a year to figure out what they are doing and there are still more DKs who just flat out suck than there are those that are actually decent the bias against DKs won't be going away anytime soon.

Not to say there aren't good DKs who can tank its just those that are good are few and far between.

[Menkey]

DK tanks have always taking massive spikes in damage in my experience as a healer. Warriors, paladins, and druids all seem able to withstand damage a bit better. Sorry, but I am sure a lot of healers out there can back me up on this.

[ryoukthebloodelf]

b/c they got a dk tank for hellfire citadel and they will always remember that

[Sulika]

I have tanked 250+ heroics on my DK and not once has anyone left due to getting a DK tank.

[tofu_soldier]

Simple answer ---
Yes, DK's can be great tanks. That's not the point though. The point is, when you're (as a healer) trying to chain heroics, or helll just get your daily done, and instantly get a DK with less then 26k health and wielding a green weapon - you run the other direction.

I know some absolutely stellar DK tanks. Doesn't mean squat.

But as a healer wanting to chain heroics / getting a daily done - running the other direction will just earn you a cooldown before being able to queue again. Besides, the party you left will probably insta-picked another random healer.

Being a healer having tank alts, realising not all people ding in epix and having the patience and time, I always try healing first - and if the tank is open-minded (actually, most if not all newbie tanks I healed are like this) I generally try to fill in their gaps, educate them - make them better tanks.

That way, the community is going to benefit with more experienced tanks, at the same time - new tanks don't get discouraged to tank and will appreciate the role they're playing.

[GenesisZero]

The problem with Dk tanks at the moment is that they started off with a really bad reputation. They were seen as the "skip to 55 and faceroll from there" class of which this style and class became associated with "noobs, scrubs and nubs of multiple varitys". The Tag "Hero" class basicly gave the message to new players and people who in all honesty hadn't yet grasped some basic fundimentals of the game yet "I Can be Epic with this class" which really gave out a bad message. In there own rights Death Knights are fairly complex in the way they do combat, slightly more so since patch. In combination with this and say the LFG system which would allow anyone regardless to queue up for what ever roll they please even if there not geared or speced for it. This Really dug the grave for death knights, especially tanks in the public opinion. After awhile it boils down to the public opinion being "Stereotypical" regardless to if the indiviual had played or seen a rubbish Death Knight.

In regards to the Tanking abilities now they are more than worthy to be tanks, some of the best tanks in the world were Death knights and this is Pre-Patch. The patch made Death Knight "true" tanks for once in regards to talents and it al being in one tree. I play Tank myself on my Death Knight and i say its never been better. I haven't had any complaints on taking too much damage nor threat problems (bar the occasional Boomkin who hasn't learn to not Starfall>Wrath spam of the pull). At the moment it just boils down to the player, Though tanking has got easier with more flexiblity with the runes (DnD only costing one rune = Win!)I can see that more and more people who just haven't got the fundimentals of the game yet ruining the image of the Death Knight much futher. Unless you get some luck with PuGs or find a guild that will support you it a bad time for death knight and always will be.

[wizdro]

That is total bullshit and I'm tired of hearing it over and over and over again. Starting a char from level 1 or level 55 has no relevance on how well you play it or learn to play it.

The fact of the matter is, we have just as many bad players of all other classes/specs as we do DKs. They starting from 55 has nothing to do with it.
Now stop the misinformation.

The accessibility of the class (anyone with one level 55+ character can create a DK on any Realm) results in more Death-Knights being made and tried out in the 60-80 bracket than any other class. The fact is that many people make Death-Knights because they can, not because they always want to. There is also the fact that many nubs who just dinged to 55 on their first main will be overjoyed to double their character-count.
I agree, we probably do have the same number of bad players as other classes, however most 'bads' would be told so or realize they don't like the class early on (motivating them to stop) before they get to BC or 80.
Starting a character at 55 could have no relevance on how well you play your class, but it might for some particularly slow people or casuals who don't put as much effort into learning a class that isn't their main.
I don't think you can completely disregard the 'start at 55' issue, even if my post did over-emphasize it somewhat.

In the DK starting zone you learn almost all you need to know, you learn that you need to put diseases on the target to increase the damage you do with other strikes.

Being that the discussion is about tanking, a problem I have experienced is 58 DKs who just got to Outlands start queing as tank and don't know what they are doing. This is primarily because the DK intro area is built around questing/solo, really teaching the player nothing about keeping threat and playing with others in a group. This is exacerbated if the player is a newb who just made a DK because they could when their first main hit 55 (a scenario stated above).

You learn how to manage your resources fine enough while leveling from 55 to 80 and I could argue you even learn to tank and DPS better while leveling from 55 to 80.

The other relevant tanking issue is that many DKs will level as DPS because it is faster, and Dual-Spec tank at 80, thus lacking the valuable party/tanking experience they would have if they tanked their way to 80. This is true of Paladins, Warriors and Druids also. Not an all-encompassing source of the myth but a contributing factor, none the less.

Doing dungeons from level 15 to 55 is so piss easy now because of heirlooms, trash dies before you can even execute a full rotation, and even some bosses do. What do you learn from that?

The simple fact is that a vast number of people are Applied and Kinesthetic learners, that is, they learn by real situations and through experiencing/doing things. Fifty-five more levels of playing usually results in better players. Not everyone is a WoW veteran and MMO-gamergeek who has an easy time jumping into and manipulating a virtual space.

On topic, DKs got the bad rep due to a combination of things. First it is indeed lots of bad players trying to tank as DK in DPS gear just in Blood pressence. Lots of DKs DW tanking in Blood or DW tanking with crappy fast weapons etc. The lack of block till now has also given DKs the bad rep of being spiky to heal and it gives the illusion that, they take more damage overall, when if you'd look at recount at the end of the day, they took just as much as the other tank.
Last but not least the nerf in patch 3.1 hit DKs hard, Blizz over did the nerf and DKs became the worst tanks, that coupled with the spiky damage input and the number of bad players was enough to put a huge taint on our rep.

Hopefully it will be better in Cataclysm when gear resets and everyone is back to square 1.

I completely agree.

b/c they got a dk tank for hellfire citadel and they will always remember that

Bad experiences with individuals taint players' conception of the class as a whole.

A class is not defined by the good players, but by the awful ones.

These. I wanted to delve into why these we're the case.

[Lightworker]

I cringed on alt level 58+ healer when I a DK qued in as tank. Was very annoying for about 10+ levels.

[seamusmc]

people are proly just looking at is DK's have always been great AOE tanks, and now that AOE threat is trash (and most DK's haven't learned how to rock it the right way yet) people are iffy on chancing it with em. poor misinformed bastards don't know what they are missing out on i guess =/

I've had a couple groups that had a poor attitude about me being a dk tank. They pretty much all asked me to re-queue afterwards.

Had one group that had gone through 3 tanks in HoR and flat out complained about me as soon as I zoned in because I had '20k' less hp then the last tank, (65k tank? failed?). They whined about me as much as the other 3 tanks before a single pull. They asked me to re-queue afterwards. (Except for the healer, they had no clue what they were doing, I mentored them a bit and got through cleanly.)

All I can say is ignore the asshats. When it comes to instances every other class is a dime a dozen ;D

---------- Post added 2010-10-25 at 03:20 PM ----------

The simple fact is that a vast number of people are Applied and Kinesthetic learners, that is, they learn by real situations and through experiencing/doing things. Fifty-five more levels of playing usually results in better players. Not everyone is a WoW veteran and MMO-gamergeek who has an easy time jumping into and manipulating a virtual space.

I have to be contrarian here, the first 55 levels for all my toons had very little implact on my play at level cap because the game becomes dramatically different at level cap. Many I know, including myself, rarely did dungeons before level cap, pre dungeon finder, and never raided before level cap.

WoW simply has a lot of bad players, period. I do agree that giving them the ability to roll a new toon at 55 probably just made the class seem worse then others. I mean, come on, at level 60 DK's were so OP at launch. Was it descretation or DnD that stunned packs? That alone made tanking and instances far easier with a DK then without. Folks that couldn't make the class work then were just bad players.

---------- Post added 2010-10-25 at 03:27 PM ----------

I do ICC 25 heroic with my guild and we do have several tanks. Last thursday we did saurfang hc(blame servers for being dodgy on wednesday) and we went with a pala and dk tank. The paladin tank was easy to keep up but the dk tank seemed to take a shitload of dmg. Yes we had a few wipes because of that, the pala is just a slight bit better geared then the dk

There is a bug with imp blood presence, if you zone in with blood presence it doesn't seem to get the benefit of imp blood presence and the DK is critable. Simply shifting to another presence and back seems to fix it.