Will hybrids still have a tax on their DPS in Cata?

[MillorTime]

Yeah I honestly thing you should be penalized because you MIGHT be able to tank/heal, I have this argument with my good online friend who plays a Ret all the time on this subject. He just wants to dps, he has never shown interest in healing and only the mildest interest in tanking. I'm pretty seasoned on this argument because of this - and I have cemented my belief that no matter what the flaw is, the game or the player - the way it is now it should be that pures beat hybrids because of the way it IS and not what people choose.

For example. I can play BM, I can play Marks, I can play Survival. Whatever is called for to beat bosses, I spec it and do it. I raid at a fairly high level and put in the work accordingly. Just because someone else wanted to be a paladin, but only do 33% of the work, cool - that's cool, but just be prepared to do two things.

1. Do somewhat less damage.
2. Sit out on fights where they would otherwise have you respec healing.

Oh but they need AOE on this fight, Ijanaak, spec Survival and get your serpent spread rolling.

"Done, boss."

Since, with hybrid tax, pures are the only dps you want right? It has nothing do to with player skill. I've been top 3-5 on the meters with my guild (not scrubs btw) as a shadow priest for about half a year. I refuse to heal. I have never been sat out for that reason. The hybrid tax is pretty dumb, the number of duel spec healers/tanks you need in a raid is like 1-3 tops. Obviously you need a raid of only hybrids for that, and pure dps classes would never be brought. Get out of here with that idiotic sky is falling crap. If you're good enough to get brought on your own merits, there is nothing to worry about.

[mordale]

Yeah I honestly thing you should be penalized because you MIGHT be able to tank/heal, I have this argument with my good online friend who plays a Ret all the time on this subject. He just wants to dps, he has never shown interest in healing and only the mildest interest in tanking. I'm pretty seasoned on this argument because of this - and I have cemented my belief that no matter what the flaw is, the game or the player - the way it is now it should be that pures beat hybrids because of the way it IS and not what people choose.

For example. I can play BM, I can play Marks, I can play Survival. Whatever is called for to beat bosses, I spec it and do it. I raid at a fairly high level and put in the work accordingly. Just because someone else wanted to be a paladin, but only do 33% of the work, cool - that's cool, but just be prepared to do two things.

1. Do somewhat less damage.
2. Sit out on fights where they would otherwise have you respec healing.

Oh but they need AOE on this fight, Ijanaak, spec Survival and get your serpent spread rolling.

"Done, boss."

might doesn't mean will or for that matter can, at the current point its easier to make another character for another role then maintain 2 roles on a single character.

switching from one spec to another spec is far easier then changing roles.

and its funny that you would use the equal opportunity argument and then switch to the point that they're being thrown out merely for desiring to use a certain class.

you "arguments",for lack of a more accurate term, are childish and selfish you want to do more dmg for putting in the least amount of effort possible and want to maintain you raid spot despite that.

your false sense of entitlement points out the ill effects of the current system and why it is being phased out more and more as time goes on.

[ShaanuJaanu]

Pures should not have any DPS advantage over Hybrids. If you are a hybrid class in a raiding situation, you are playing ONE role. You are not casting LB,LB,LB, Healing Wave. You should not be penalized because you can theoretically have the rotation. Hybrids no longer bring more utility to raids than pures therefore they should not be taxed.

You say you are going to drop your Lock for your Ele because he has the option to heal. There are thousands of Shamans who will be fucking done with that class if we have to go through yet another expansion of a nerfed class because we "could" heal. Pures could level a Priest and therefore should be penalized because they could be playing an alt. Same thing as constantly nerf batting Shaman, Druids, Paladins, and Priests.

Hybrids should always be under pures; I play a hybrid and I'm ok with it.

Basically just because u leveld a druid..shouldnt give u as much as dmg as a mage when u go boomkin, as much dmg as rogue when u go feral cat.

because if it did..there would be no reason to play a mage or a rogue..since..u can just level a druid and have a mage and a rogue and switch when u need range/melee dps etc.

PLus its not like a mooonkin or feral cats dont root/cast heals/innervate etc in PVP when they need to...which neither mage nor rogue can even if they tried.

[lolcantdothat]

No one roled their class "because it was a pure". If you did, I'm sorry to say, but you're in the same bag with those FOTM rolers - the trash bag.

People like their class because the way it plays, not if its a pure or hybrid.

That philosiphy made by GC long ago was fail from the start.

[Wannabetank]

To fix this lets go vanilla times!

paladin = healer
shaman = healer
druid = healer
priest = healer

warlock = dps
hunter = dps
mage = dps
rogue = dps

warrior = tank

just gunna throw it in as tank since warriors need love

death knight = tank.

now that thats settled... do you REALLY not want to be able to hybrid? you get twice the choice of tanks ffs enough said lesser queues lesser LFM heroic ICC need tank.

IF you notice this might be why

25man raid... using the ratio above 2 heal 2 dps 1 tank is ratio 4/4/2

that x2.5 would be 10healers 10dps 5tanks... without the hybrid system and if every1 equally balanced out class ratio that would be ur raid.... but 5 of them healers went dps... and 3 of them tanks went dps.... 80% dmg increase 80% faster raids lets be cheery now?

[Gilgemesh]

I read your link endus. I believe you interpreted it wrong.
"In BC, we tried to promote other roles for some classes, but we still didn’t make everyone play by the same rules. Warriors, and I hate to pick on them, were intended to be the best tank while also deliver dps that we would now label as competitive with rogues. By contrast, druids, paladins, priests and shaman were intended to be competitive healers, but have dramatically lower dps than pures and warriors. Likewise, druids, paladins, priests and shaman brought many unique and powerful buffs that were intended to compensate for their low dps. We spread these buffs out to a much greater degree in Lich King, and plan on refining that implementation for Cataclysm."

Notice that the entire thing starts with "IN BC" in other words, their design changed from bc to wotlk, and will continue to change for cata. It in no way said warriors were intended to be stronger in wotlk. In fact, it said they were inteded to be stronger in BC and that philosophy changed as they pushed into wotlk, then further so as they pushed into cata.

[Brince]

Now that every class and spec brings one or more useful buffs, the hybrid tax is obsolete imo.

[Burlacher]

i 100% disagree that hybrids should be less damage. if you properly gear, gem, enchant, and play your toon correctly, you should be able to be top dps regardless of class. you play the toon that fits your playstyle. no one should be gimped because they want to play a hybrid class. all the hybrid clas does is gives you more options. techniaclly speaking all classes are hybrids because they have multiple specs.

i have not seen 1 good reason to support the idea that dps only classes should output more damage than hybrid classes.

if blizzard made a tank or healing only class, should that class be better than the hybrids? absolutely not

just my 2 cents

[mordale]

@Shaanujannu
there are reasons to play pures even if single target dmg output were the same.

only rogues and hunters can add threat to the tank or set aggro on new adds to the tanks.
warlocks and magi have some of the highest possible snap aoe in the game.


and your point around the druid spells is null as last i checked they indeed can heal,root,and restore mana to others and themselves.

[Against the Modern World]

Hybrid tax is gone, now it's called Shaman tax.

[Endus]

You are just wrong. See, you can use mostly the same gear to do just that (different DPS specs). Of course, things may vary from one spec to another, but you can use the same set and still perform nicely.

Now, if you were playing a Paladin and you had Retribution T10. Then somebody asks you to heal. You cannot. Your raid leader asks you to tank. You cannot. And as your guild progresses, the gear required for you to perform well with your DPS spec has to be better and better. So when are you getting other gear to support your other possible roles? It cannot be done, I am sorry.

Know how I know you don't raid consistently?

When 4.0.1 hit, after an entire expansion of being Enhancement main spec and Resto off spec (or PvP, but that's neither here nor there), I decided to swap to Elemental since I like the new mechanics there more than the new Enhancement.

I had a set of mostly 251+ Elemental gear already, and by pillaging my Resto set for gear with Spirit, I was almost entirely 264+ geared. I was missing trinkets and a ring.

When nobody needs a piece of gear for their main spec, people can snag it for their off spec. You can get surprising amounts of gear this way if you raid regularly and consistently. My off specs were never at my top gear level of my main spec, but they were easily only about one item level behind, on average.

The only way you're not gearing up your off specs, especially after a year of ICC, is if you barely ever raid, or only ever PUG, or your guild runs with a harsh loot system that would rather disenchant gear than give it to people for their off spec.

[Niter]

Hybrids should always be under pures; I play a hybrid and I'm ok with it.

Basically just because u leveld a druid..shouldnt give u as much as dmg as a mage when u go boomkin, as much dmg as rogue when u go feral cat.

because if it did..there would be no reason to play a mage or a rogue..since..u can just level a druid and have a mage and a rogue and switch when u need range/melee dps etc.

PLus its not like a mooonkin or feral cats dont root/cast heals/innervate etc in PVP when they need to...which neither mage nor rogue can even if they tried.

Mages and Rogues have different tools.

You do not know what you are talking about just like some others.

If your guild wants to finish the latest content available to it, you cannot afford to play any other spec than your main.

Honestly, it is that simple. Perhaps people like you got fooled by how WotLK works, but even in WotLK assembling a new set of gear is not exactly easy. If you run any sort of DKP, you are not going to be able to get every single piece of gear you can wear. You will get what your main role needs and that is it until you have all you want.

Everybody is able to acquire some off-pieces, but that is not enough if you are going for the best performance possible in order to get the latest raid boss down.

It is simple as that. You might be a DPS who can heal heroics, tank heroics or something like that with the paltry gear you eventually get, but that is not enough to make you better than another player with the proper gear and spec.

Unless you are more skilled, but if it comes down to skill there is no point in discussing this in the first place.

[MillorTime]

Hybrids should always be under pures; I play a hybrid and I'm ok with it.

Basically just because u leveld a druid..shouldnt give u as much as dmg as a mage when u go boomkin, as much dmg as rogue when u go feral cat.

because if it did..there would be no reason to play a mage or a rogue..since..u can just level a druid and have a mage and a rogue and switch when u need range/melee dps etc.

PLus its not like a mooonkin or feral cats dont root/cast heals/innervate etc in PVP when they need to...which neither mage nor rogue can even if they tried.

You would have to get gear with both specs for that to be relevant, and in a post-WotLK world this is going to be a stretch in most cases. The hybrid tax pales in comparison to changing from blues to epics.

[Moxal]

As someone above said, hopefully not many people play a class simply because it does more dps than other classes. Granted, I have never main specced a DPS in WoW, always played a healer. And was always a tank in other MMOs.

For the most part, people play classes because they like them.

I played a priest and a shaman through Wrath because I love to heal, and Prayer of Mending / Earth Shield are really fun spells. I am most likely going to play a DK tank in Cataclysm because I am intrigued by the possibiities of their Blood Shield and have always wanted to main a tank for an expansion.

[alt-ithist]

and to counter your point people who want to do more dmg merely because they picked a "special" class to play(all of which are easy as piss) are being selfish and unfair.

the entire philosophy is about bringing the better player not merely the better class.
and at the point that "pures" are at they're no longer "pure" many of them have there own method of self healing and raid contribution.

Someone doesnt seem to understand what hybrid means. Because you can self heal doesnt make you hybrid. When you can change your spec to turn into a healer or a tank, then you are a hybrid. Warlocks could self heal since vanilla, that never made them a hybrid.

[Sellitto]

I don't know where I stand on this subject. With my main being a mage, I feel biased. That hasn't stopped me from changing my main into a shaman. I am eager to see what the rest of you have to say.

[alt-ithist]

@Shaanujannu
there are reasons to play pures even if single target dmg output were the same.

only rogues and hunters can add threat to the tank or set aggro on new adds to the tanks.
warlocks and magi have some of the highest possible snap aoe in the game.


and your point around the druid spells is null as last i checked they indeed can heal,root,and restore mana to others and themselves.

True but those are utilities. The hybrid tax isnt base on the tools you can bring to the raid, specially since utilities are being spread around like candy (still surprise a new class didnt get trick).

[Schippi]

i play ele and love to support.

but every pure can do this as well. maybe not sooo much as we do, but certainly not so much to warrant 5-10% tax or even more

[Niter]

Know how I know you don't raid consistently?

When 4.0.1 hit, after an entire expansion of being Enhancement main spec and Resto off spec (or PvP, but that's neither here nor there), I decided to swap to Elemental since I like the new mechanics there more than the new Enhancement.

I had a set of mostly 251+ Elemental gear already, and by pillaging my Resto set for gear with Spirit, I was almost entirely 264+ geared. I was missing trinkets and a ring.

When nobody needs a piece of gear for their main spec, people can snag it for their off spec. You can get surprising amounts of gear this way if you raid regularly and consistently. My off specs were never at my top gear level of my main spec, but they were easily only about one item level behind, on average.

The only way you're not gearing up your off specs, especially after a year of ICC, is if you barely ever raid, or only ever PUG, or your guild runs with a harsh loot system that would rather disenchant gear than give it to people for their off spec.

There is you problem right there.

"After a year of ICC". Seriously, what I get from you is that you have not been playing for long.

And yes, you could have all the gear you wanted, but from 4.01 on, you cannot play 10 AND 25 mans at the same time. If you cannot do that, it pretty much halves the amount of Frost Emblems you get.

Good luck "being lucky with getting pieces other people do not want" for your second spec. I doubt you could get a good set for that before MONTHS of raiding. You just can't. Any other person who has a main spec and is properly geared should get your spot whenever you are trying to play your off-spec. Considering you have enough experience and skill to play it right...

[Gilgemesh]

i 100% disagree that hybrids should be less damage. if you properly gear, gem, enchant, and play your toon correctly, you should be able to be top dps regardless of class. you play the toon that fits your playstyle. no one should be gimped because they want to play a hybrid class. all the hybrid clas does is gives you more options. techniaclly speaking all classes are hybrids because they have multiple specs.

i have not seen 1 good reason to support the idea that dps only classes should output more damage than hybrid classes.

if blizzard made a tank or healing only class, should that class be better than the hybrids? absolutely not

just my 2 cents

Well you have a point, but the difference in dps between a pure and a hybrid, even with their tax would be well within the margin for error and mechanics in fights. So the hybrid who moved quickly and resumed dps properly would still outdps the pure that didn't. I support the hybrid "tax". Simply because smartly played hybrids CAN sacrifice dps to save the life of another player, or sacrifice heals to help crank dps up, or can taunt and kite mobs while the raid recovers from a devastating death. This is how it is, Hybrids are simply more useful, thus don't have the very top end dps in a perfect world. But the best players wills till top charts with their hybrids, and there will still be mechanics, such as the flood of rage warriors got as their gear increased in wotlk, that will allow some hybrids to be top dps. Can't ask for perfection, but its an easy choice for me between pure dps and hybrid. I take the hybrid even if it doesn't sim out as good as the rogue or warlock.