Cairne's death and Garrosh

[Sesto]

Did you care for it Cairnes death? I thought it was really epic, but also kinda saddening. (If you haven't read the book it may not seem that interesting to you, but the way it is described is awesome)

I never really got into Cairne's backstory that much, but I felt sad when he died. He just wanted to help the horde and be rid of Garrosh, but he was betrayed. I really think though it was partially his fault, he probably should of removed Magatha from Thunderbluff a long time ago.

About Garrosh though, I am starting to like him. In the actual game he just seems like a hothead, but in the book he is likeable (still a hothead, but has some brains). What's your opinion on Garrosh?

[Scumalum]

I've always been a huge Cairne fan since I first fired up WC3. I understood the whole his whole point of keeping his enemy close (Magatha) to keep a better eye on her. It is obvious that he failed in that department.

OT: I too was disappointed in Garrosh initially, but I am happy to see some character development. He does seem to be the boost the Horde needs now. With the resource shortage, a combative personality is needed to lead the Horde.

[orcshaman24]

The booked actully made it clearer for me just what I first thought of Garrosh, that he's a glory hogging sadist.

Cairne might have fallen for the terrible trap the twilight cultist set up, and in doing so, accused Garrosh of it, but Cairne genuinely cared for the horde and what it became because of Thrall that Garrosh ever will. Cairne looked at the reshaping of orgrimmar, and saw it for something I recognised too, when he said it resembeled hellfire citadel.
He challanged Garrosh, who tried to up the stakes of Cairnes noble intention by making the fight into a death match.
And when he killed Cairne, it didn't matter to him he killed a noble leader of the horde, to Garrosh, it was only about his personal glory.

So no, I did not learn to think anything greater about Garrosh in this book, in truth, it only resolved my thought that he is more the bad part of the horde then I first thought.

And I just don't get what it is with people saying 'he's getting better', when all he's doing is emulating his father for his own self glory.

[gabrield]

I like the way Blizzard are taking the characters in Cataclysm, flawed and not perfect.

It's like Varian, I hate him... alot. But then I'm completely Horde and will never play Alliance so I'm supposed to hate him and so I like his character.

Of course you get a lot of hypocrisy here with people moaning about Knaak's Mary Sues and then will moan about characters like Garrosh, Sylvanas and Varian.

Edit: It was made clear (in the book) that they never made a big deal about the bad Grom did for the Horde, they merely emphasized his glory. So Garrosh who was initially ashamed of Grom is now trying to redeem himself by being the perfect Horde warrior. Garrosh also cares deeply for the Horde, everything he does is done for the Horde and even his own idea of glory is tied into the Horde.

[XepNes]

orcshammy your still bluntly spouting out your propaganda?

garrosh has grown up alot since the wrath of the lich king expansion, where he was turned into temp warchief, with flaws. You cant make great characters without flaws and mistakes. Hes gonna grow up alot more in cataclysm and find balance between his undying rage and peace of mind.

[orcshaman24]

orcshammy your still bluntly spouting out your propaganda?

So you'd sooner everyone had the same way of thinking and only saw things one way? Sorry, I see Garrosh's as a plot device and nothing more.

[jitzul]

im just pissed that bilzz is just trying as hard as they can to make a plot device(garrosh) likable to people who hate him. hes already praised by pvp nuts and people who like the horde=evil stereo type.
also ib4 10 page garrosh fanboy vs thrall fanboy thread.

[XepNes]

So you'd sooner everyone had the same way of thinking and only saw things one way? Sorry, I see Garrosh's as a plot device and nothing more.

You kinda did... Sure the fact doesnt change but details does. Garrosh never did it for personal glory... he wasnt even aiming to kill Cairne, but the poisen from the runetotem weakened Cairne so much that his attack became a deathblow. As I remember he even went to Baine and apologized in a kinda way.

[Goldrinn]

Cairne might have fallen for the terrible trap the twilight cultist set up, and in doing so, accused Garrosh of it, but Cairne genuinely cared for the horde and what it became because of Thrall that Garrosh ever will. Cairne looked at the reshaping of orgrimmar, and saw it for something I recognised too, when he said it resembeled hellfire citadel.
He challanged Garrosh, who tried to up the stakes of Cairnes noble intention by making the fight into a death match.
And when he killed Cairne, it didn't matter to him he killed a noble leader of the horde, to Garrosh, it was only about his personal glory.

Edit: XepNes beat me to the punch.

[Ichiri]

Garrosh has too hard to figure out for me to like him, he's pretty much just a plot divice, and Cairne's death was kind of sad, but he didn't really do much ingame so i never had much to care about for him.

[orcshaman24]

You kinda did... Sure the fact doesnt change but details does. Garrosh never did it for personal glory... he wasnt even aiming to kill Cairne, but the poisen from the runetotem weakened Cairne so much that his attack became a deathblow. As I remember he even went to Baine and apologized in a kinda way.

I'm sorry but thats complete rubbish. If it wasn't out for personal glory, why would someone howl for phrash from the crowds cheering his actions after killing one of there own?

You want to see this one way, thats fine, see it however you want, but don't tell people to see it only from one angle when there's enough to show more then one. Thats how wars start and end.

[Falrinn]

So you'd sooner everyone had the same way of thinking and only saw things one way? Sorry, I see Garrosh's as a plot device and nothing more.

Ever heard of confirmation bias before?

This is a psychological phenomena that more or less affects the entire population. Basically it means that once you take a stance on anything, you will tend to dismiss any evidence against your stance as flukes and insignificant exceptions to the "rule", and only view evidence in favor of your stance as being significant.

In your case you will view any of Garrosh's seemingly reasonable choices as random flukes or at least cases of "doing the right thing for the wrong reasons", and his less intelligent decisions as an expression of the very core of his character. Being able to catch yourself experiencing confirmation bias is necessary to being able to evaluate your own stances in a rational manner.

Personally, while I think Garrosh is no Thrall. He's actually smarter then he often comes off, and does occasionally learn from his mistakes. His tactics are extremely aggressive, but they do end up succeeding more often then not, and his devotion to honor keeps him from going down a truly dark path.

Regardless it's obvious his character is not meant to be the most likable, and I do not think he will remain Warchief for long. Thrall will probably return at the end of Cataclysm and Garrosh will either die a hero as his father did, or return to a position akin to the one he holds in WotLK.

[Rennor]

The booked actully made it clearer for me just what I first thought of Garrosh, that he's a glory hogging sadist.

Cairne might have fallen for the terrible trap the twilight cultist set up, and in doing so, accused Garrosh of it, but Cairne genuinely cared for the horde and what it became because of Thrall that Garrosh ever will. Cairne looked at the reshaping of orgrimmar, and saw it for something I recognised too, when he said it resembeled hellfire citadel.
He challanged Garrosh, who tried to up the stakes of Cairnes noble intention by making the fight into a death match.
And when he killed Cairne, it didn't matter to him he killed a noble leader of the horde, to Garrosh, it was only about his personal glory.

So no, I did not learn to think anything greater about Garrosh in this book, in truth, it only resolved my thought that he is more the bad part of the horde then I first thought.

And I just don't get what it is with people saying 'he's getting better', when all he's doing is emulating his father for his own self glory.

I dont think Garrosh would see killing Cairne as a tragedy, you know, seeing as they were having a deathmatch.

[XepNes]

I'm sorry but thats complete rubbish. If it wasn't out for personal glory, why would someone howl for phrash from the crowds cheering his actions after killing one of there own?

You want to see this one way, thats fine, see it however you want, but don't tell people to see it only from one angle when there's enough to show more then one. Thats how wars start and end.

Im not saying its from one angle, Im saying whats in yours angle is Bullshit... And you have yet to show an offical link to this "howling" and not some fan-art thing that you said last time, and cheering on the crowd is normal after a hard duel... name one person who wouldnt want to howl out in rage after believing s/he beat Cairne. Then after wards realise you killed him

---------- Post added 2010-11-01 at 03:42 AM ----------

Ever heard of confirmation bias before?

This is a psychological phenomena that more or less affects the entire population. Basically it means that once you take a stance on anything, you will tend to dismiss any evidence against your stance as flukes and insignificant exceptions to the "rule", and only view evidence in favor of your stance as being significant.

In your case you will view any of Garrosh's seemingly reasonable choices as random flukes or at least cases of "doing the right thing for the wrong reasons", and his less intelligent decisions as an expression of the very core of his character. Being able to catch yourself experiencing confirmation bias is necessary to being able to evaluate your own stances in a rational manner.

Personally, while I think Garrosh is no Thrall. He's actually smarter then he often comes off, and does occasionally learn from his mistakes. His tactics are extremely aggressive, but they do end up succeeding more often then not, and his devotion to honor keeps him from going down a truly dark path.

Regardless it's obvious his character is not meant to be the most likable, and I do not think he will remain Warchief for long. Thrall will probably return at the end of Cataclysm and Garrosh will either die a hero as his father did, or return to a position akin to the one he holds in WotLK.

Nice post o.o and Garrosh is only "Temp" warchief, thrall is gettin his chair back sooner or later.

---------- Post added 2010-11-01 at 03:42 AM ----------

I dont think Garrosh would see killing Cairne as a tragedy, you know, seeing as they were having a deathmatch.

Did you actuly care to read the book? and not make groundless assumption in a discussion?

[Goldrinn]

I dont think Garrosh would see killing Cairne as a tragedy, you know, seeing as they were having a deathmatch.

It's not the fact that Cairne is dead that makes it a tragedy(Not to Garrosh, anyway), it's the fact that Garrosh only killed him because Magatha poisoned Gorehowl. Cairne died a dishonorable death, and Garrosh doesn't like that.

[orcshaman24]

This is a psychological phenomena that more or less affects the entire population. Basically it means that once you take a stance on anything, you will tend to dismiss any evidence against your stance as flukes and insignificant exceptions to the "rule", and only view evidence in favor of your stance as being significant.

Ever heard of The Sheep Syndrome. People following along with believeing the crap that Garrosh is being developed, because every other person who doesn't see how bad a retconned toon he is thinks its not viable to say otherwise. In other words, following the flock and believeing all the flock tell you without looking beyond it.

This fits right in with the new shoes syndrome, being people thinking because something's new there can't be any faults with it, well older things are more at fault.

---------- Post added 2010-11-01 at 02:49 AM ----------

It's not the fact that Cairne is dead that makes it a tragedy(Not to Garrosh, anyway), it's the fact that Garrosh only killed him because Magatha poisoned Gorehowl. Cairne died a dishonorable death, and Garrosh doesn't like that.

The only thing he did't LIKE was his honor being stained, he didn't actully care that he play a part in Cairnes death.

[Sesto]

I dont think Garrosh would see killing Cairne as a tragedy, you know, seeing as they were having a deathmatch.

Sometime after the battle he went back to the Arena and was thinking about the fact that he wished Cairne did not challenge him. He didn't want him to die, but he also would not take the insults that Cairne gave him kindly (being accused of ordering the attack on the peaceful druid meeting).

Then of course, he finds out that Magatha posioned his blade, and then his rage takes over and becomes angry because Magatha had taken the honor away from him, he would never know if he was strong enough to defeat Cairne.

I believe Garrosh is not as "evil" as some people see him as, he is just too often blinded by glory and honor.

[tinyninja]

Im not saying its from one angle, Im saying whats in yours angle is Bullshit... And you have yet to show an offical link to this "howling" and not some fan-art thing that you said last time, and cheering on the crowd is normal after a hard duel... name one person who wouldnt want to howl out in rage after believing s/he beat Cairne. Then after wards realise you killed him

---------- Post added 2010-11-01 at 03:42 AM ----------



Nice post o.o and Garrosh is only "Temp" warchief, thrall is gettin his chair back sooner or later.

---------- Post added 2010-11-01 at 03:42 AM ----------



Did you actuly care to read the book? and not make groundless assumption in a discussion?

Which makes me wonder: Would the Horde actually want Thrall back as their warchief? The tauren and Vol'jin for sure would want him back but the majority of the Horde is more than happy to be at war with the Alliance with Garrosh leading.

I dont think Garrosh would see killing Cairne as a tragedy, you know, seeing as they were having a deathmatch.

Garrosh was not pleased that he had to kill Cairne. He didn't dislike Cairne, he just thought he was extremely old-fashioned. Garrosh saw fighting Cairne a necessity to his position as a leader, Cairne dropped down a lot of false accusations on Garrosh and the mak'gora right after didn't help with Garrosh's temper, causing him to make it a death match. To not fight Cairne would be disgraceful and humiliating.

Ever heard of The Sheep Syndrome. People following along with believeing the crap that Garrosh is being developed, because every other person who doesn't see how bad a retconned toon he is thinks its not viable to say otherwise. In other words, following the flock and believeing all the flock tell you without looking beyond it.

This fits right in with the new shoes syndrome, being people thinking because something's new there can't be any faults with it, well older things are more at fault.

---------- Post added 2010-11-01 at 02:49 AM ----------



The only thing he did't LIKE was his honor being stained, he didn't actully care that he play a part in Cairnes death.

Considering that the people who actually like or support Garrosh as warchief are the minority, it's much easier to assume that hating Garrosh is the correct way to "follow the herd". It's also easier to argue against Garrosh, rather than for him.

[XepNes]

he is just too often blinded by glory and honor.

Everyone has they're way of living, and their goals and priorities. Might differ between different people but glory and honor is what he lives for.

[orcshaman24]

Sometime after the battle he went back to the Arena and was thinking about the fact that he wished Cairne did not challenge him. He didn't want him to die, but he also would not take the insults that Cairne gave him kindly (being accused of ordering the attack on the peaceful druid meeting).

Then of course, he finds out that Magatha posioned his blade, and then his rage takes over and becomes angry because Magatha had taken the honor away from him, he would never know if he was strong enough to defeat Cairne.

I believe Garrosh is not as "evil" as some people see him as, he is just too often blinded by glory and honor.

Make that self glory and self honor.

He killed a group of alliance sailors who for all that could have been debated, were swept off course because of the storm, and not showing any agression, Garrosh killed them. And even in when he left a few alive, it wasn't because he showed mercy. It was so he could have those who survived to spread his glory of what he did and mock Varian well doing it. He wants glory for all he does, even when it messes with any sense of morality the horde was meant to have regained.