Holy Paladins being weak in 4.0.1

[Simca]

This is the dumbest idea ever.

Holy Shock is not optional. It is one of our best heals now, if not the best. There's no reason to pass up an instant cast heal that heals for around 10-14k. None what-so-ever. Not only that but it'll help you stack Holy Power faster for more FREE instant heals from Word of Glory, which can proc more free Word of Glory heals from talents.

Worst advice ever!

Holy Shock heals for less than Flash of Light.
Word of Glory heals for less than Flash of Light.

Until we start having mana issues (81+), there is no reason to use either spell unless you're moving.

Well, if you want to use buff Divine Light, you could use Holy Shock to proc Speed of Light and then use it on a Divine Light (don't waste Speed of Light on a Flash of Light, ever!). But I covered that in the previous post.

Sigh, neither of you obviously read Patch Notes. All judgements were equalized way back in patch 3.1something. All through most of WotLK, it didn't matter who cast JoL or JoW, everyone got the exact same effect, even prot paladins with the Divinity talent. All that mattered was that someone in the raid group cast it and everyone got the exact same buffs/heals, the Divinity talent (and all other healing bonus talents/abilities) were applied after the heal from JoL went to the person. While it may have "padded" the numbers, it didn't affect anything in reality. Our Prot paladins always cast JoW because it was more beneficial to keep the mana buff always up than the JoL heal. And since every Holy Paladin had to judge to keep the JotP talent active, it should have been you casting JoL since it didn't need 100% uptime.

My mistake then to have thought that Divinity still affected it.

That even further reinforces my point though. Prot and Ret should have been able to keep both debuffs up with ease.

Holy Paladins using JoL were clearly just padding meters.

[Killora]

Holy Shock heals for less than Flash of Light.
Word of Glory heals for less than Flash of Light.

Until we start having mana issues (81+), there is no reason to use either spell unless you're moving.

Word of glory is free. Holy shock generates holy power on a low cooldown, with a proc to ignore said cooldown, has a low mana cost, and heals almost as much as flash of light.

Flash of light, somewhat high heals, for a rediculously high mana cost, is not efficient at 80 whatsoever. Flash of light is for emergency situations. Not something to be used often. You should hardly ever be using this.

Holy light is useful at 80. Your previous statement was invalid in saying so. Holy light is used when damage is low, and for infusion of light procs for fast casts.

What plane of existance do you live on, exactly? What are you basing this "No mana issues" on exactly? spamming holy light? maybe divine light? It sure as hell is not spamming flash. Spamming divine light will eat your mana, itll just take slightly longer.

Healing at 80 is not a l2p issue. It's a mechanics issue.

Refer to my first post. Not complaining here.

[Killora]

The only thing that paladins were "OP" at in 3.3.5 was tank healing, and of course Dreamwalker healing.

Even then, we honestly werent really "OP". ICC ( heroic ) had high tank damage in general. Paladins were the counteraction to that. However we were by no means neccesary.

DPS is really, really high at this point in time. No fight besides HLK lasts over 5-6 minutes.

And spamming flash of light or even divine light for 5-6 minutes just isn't doable.

I can go through all the heavy phases of those fights spamming Flash of Light and Divine Light.

Define heavy phases. And what fights.

Holy Shock and Word of Glory are very, very situational spells at 80.

Not really?

Holy Light is 100% useless at 80.

Again, not really. I'll explain why below.

First off. If you say that holy shock and WoG are highly situational, that means you must not use them much. Also you say HL is 100% useless. This tells me you dont use them at all. You define Flash of light and Divine light as the 2 prime spells to use. Which tells me you spam these.

Then you say fasts dont last more than 5-6 minutes, except on H LK. Which is true. And it was true before 4.0.1.

However, i can 100% guarantee you you cannot by any circumstances SPAM cast Flash of light or Divine light for a full 5-6 minutes or in H LKs case longer, without going OOM. Unless you have 8 druids ( possibly exaggerating ) rotating Innervates on you, you're not going to pull this off. Replenishment took a fat hit. Divine plea took a fat hit ( not saying any of these are bad ) Illumination was removed. mana back on crit was removed, Most of our regen talents were either removed, or nerfed, and flash of light essentially costs more mana than HL did pre 3.3, and casts faster ( generally ) than it did. DL takes around 200 more mana, and is fairly fast under raid buffs.

[Seagrams]

No, healing is about keeping people alive. But it sucks when the meters say that every other class is better at it
I wouldn't mind about that if it was due to specific fight mechanics, as long as I could get revenge at bosses like Festergut or Dreamwalker.

But we can't do that at ANY fight at the moment.
I remember pre-4.0.1 where I was strugling and fighting with a druid for number one on BQL..
I'm not even going to try now, that's how bad it is.[COLOR="red"]

Druids and Disc Priests should really be destroying everyone on BQL.

OT: Paladins just have bad aoe healing right now, and everyone else is pretty much even on tank healing, so Paladins are a bit low till Holy Radiance.

[Killora]

Actually, paladins could do only one thing.. And they were good at that.
But because we were so good, they had to balance ICC around it :P I think ICC damage was the counteraction against paladinhealing.

Likely. But if we can do only one thing good, and others can do 3 things good. Shouldnt we deserve to do our one thing we CAN do better than they can?

Talking in a 3.3.5/3 scenario of course.

I also dominate the meters (well amongst Holy Paladins). If you aren't burning all your mana in a fight, then you have leftover resources.

So you're saying, amongst the paladins in your raid, you're dominating them in meters.

If thats the case. Then i dont see your point. Really isn't saying much. It's like saying, as a priest on beta, you're dominating the other priests on the meters, when priests are fairly bad on beta right now.

Edit: Also, Simca, I'm not tryin to come off as an ass or anything like that. If i am i apoligize.

[Giledhel]

We are a month from the release of Cata... I can see why all the fuss.
Atm we are healing with the Cata model in LK which blizzard warned befoe release that it wouldnt feel right. So plz stop all the QQing and wait for Cata.

[Simca]

And spamming flash of light or even divine light for 5-6 minutes just isn't doable.

Define heavy phases. And what fights.

Not really?

Again, not really. I'll explain why below.

First off. If you say that holy shock and WoG are highly situational, that means you must not use them much. Also you say HL is 100% useless. This tells me you dont use them at all. You define Flash of light and Divine light as the 2 prime spells to use. Which tells me you spam these.

Then you say fasts dont last more than 5-6 minutes, except on H LK. Which is true. And it was true before 4.0.1.

However, i can 100% guarantee you you cannot by any circumstances SPAM cast Flash of light or Divine light for a full 5-6 minutes or in H LKs case longer, without going OOM. Unless you have 8 druids ( possibly exaggerating ) rotating Innervates on you, you're not going to pull this off. Replenishment took a fat hit. Divine plea took a fat hit ( not saying any of these are bad ) Illumination was removed. mana back on crit was removed, Most of our regen talents were either removed, or nerfed, and flash of light essentially costs more mana than HL did pre 3.3, and casts faster ( generally ) than it did. DL takes around 200 more mana, and is fairly fast under raid buffs.

I'm likely exaggerating the extent to which I use the spells to convey the point across. The point is this:

Hunters used to calculate the exact time to use Aspect of the Viper so that when the fight ended they had 0% mana left.

Holy Paladins have to do the same to maximize their healing.

In the heavier phases of fights (I'll list some: Marrowgar Bone Storm, Saurfang after enrage, Festergut 2nd/3rd Inhale, Professor Putricide gas clouds/ooze/phase 3, Blood princes many flame orbs/healing on the empowered prince tank/after screwups, Blood Queen air phase/black flames, Dreamwalker, and Sindragosa phase 3), I spam Flash of Light and Divine Light (still using Holy Shock/Word when moving and Light of Dawn when needed). Flash of Light can snipe just about any other healer. It burns off a nice chunk of mana in return, but that's fine.

If I don't play the fight like I think I will and screw up and have 20% mana and the boss is at 50%, I'll start playing like other Holy Paladins, even more conservatively, perhaps. I'll Lay on Hands myself, pot, and then proceed with Holy Lights, Holy Shocks, and Words of Glory until I really need to burn the mana.

Will learning to burn mana completely fix the level 80 issues? No.

It will help you gain 500-1000 HPS though, to be more competitive, if that is your goal.

I personally have to do it this way because the other healers I run with are still re-learning their class (they're pretty slow at it) and are not able to keep the raid up.

[Killora]

The problem with doin that is on a fight like H LK that just isn't going to cut it. You'll likely end up having damage like the phases you listed the entire fight.

If you put it that way, yeah, you wont go oom with short bursts of massive mana output like that. But you wont be able to sustain it for very long at all either.

Either way though. Holy light isn't 100% useless. And Holy shock/WoG is not highly situational. Using the latter two during high damage phases isn't going to lessen your healing, and it sure wont kill anybody that wouldnt already of died.

[Simca]

The problem with doin that is on a fight like H LK that just isn't going to cut it. You'll likely end up having damage like the phases you listed the entire fight.

If you put it that way, yeah, you wont go oom with short bursts of massive mana output like that. But you wont be able to sustain it for very long at all either.

I agree with you about the Heroic Lich King - that will not work for his fight. It doesn't matter anyway for me because my guild is 11/12 heroic, but we aren't at the level for that fight, especially in healing skill.

But yeah, I do think that some of the issues of Paladins on these forums could be helped on the other 11 bosses with learning better mana management.

But considering it is a skill that isn't incredibly useful at 85 (I'm just guessing here, but Blizzard is probably going to make mana regen hell), and there is 4-5 weeks between now and this level of mana becoming a thing of the past... probably not too useful for everyone.

[kagero2024]

Do people just not read up on their class specs anymore now an days?

Yes, the 4.0 patch may have messed up a lot of random things, and yes, we may heal less "may", but all in all, most of the people bitching is about not being number 1 on Recount, or Skada or whatever recording addon they are using. No, i'm not an EJ, nor do I care to be, but I do my research, I learn where people go wrong, and I do the opposite. So far, listening to more than 90% of the people on these forums complaining about how they suck now, really just shows how much they sucked before 4.0.
If you fall into the category, than.... well, stop playing with your fail skill.

Everyone else has aoe healing, or some form of faster or bigger heals or something better than Holy Paladins right now. Have you seen the 25man videos in beta? Last time I checked, all the healers that were 1, 2 or 3 were all paladins. In damn near all of them, paladins were top.

Here is a quick hint for paladins who are bitching about their lack of knowledge of their class/spec.

********DRUM ROLL*********
SPIRIT!

Do not touch mastery, it's crap, it's utter crap right now.
Screw Crit.
Haste is your friend, so is MP/5 enchants/whatever.

If you have not found that out by looking at future items in cata, then you might want to start researching before you go shouting your mouths off about how much paladins suck right now.

I for one USE Holy Light, Holy Shock, Flash of Light, Light of Dawn, Word of Glory, Divine Light, and none of them in a special order. I see someone taking damage, or is about to because Heroic LK is about to pwn my tank, then I act accordingly, or set myself up to be prepared for it.

Our class is so simple once you learn how to play it, it's easier than the previous patch, and much, much better.

I can't always beat my Disc priest counter part in 10man Heroic LK, but I can come close most of the time. But when we get into clutch spots and I still have more than 75% mana in phase 3 and he has no mana or less than 25%, you better believe I'm going to be doing my job with FoL's, HS, and WoG to keep my raid a live. Wanna know why? Because I have a crap load of Spirit that keeps me topped off with plenty of mana.

[Killora]

So basically, you just made a account to lecture me/us how to play our class when you yourself dont even entirely know.

Also comes to show how much you actually read of all of the posts bearing namely me and simca were netiher complaining and i specifically clarified that in a previous post. I also clarified on your "LOLRECOUNT" section. Should probably put those glasses on and re-read Bro.

Everyone else has aoe healing, or some form of faster or bigger heals or something better than Holy Paladins right now. Have you seen the 25man videos in beta? Last time I checked, all the healers that were 1, 2 or 3 were all paladins. In damn near all of them, paladins were top.

Grats. This is live realms bro. Not Beta. Invalid argument is invalid.

i'm going to end this with a warm and welcoming *****DRUM ROLL***** "Cool story bro"

[Tuccoyote265]

Our live heals were not buffed. How by any means you can thing this is inconcievable.

From Ghostcrawler: "Yes, we buffed the 5 paladin direct heals (FoL, HL, DL, HS, WoG). This is a change for both level 80 and 85."
blue.mmo-champion.com/t/27291817542/holy-paladin-hotfix/ (sorry, can't post URLs yet)
That was from 10/19/2010, later on in the thread it was calculated out to be exactly 30% increase in the base coefficient. This "fix" was not applied to the Beta until 10/27/2010. There are numerous blue posts all over the official healing forums stating that the change that was made applies only to the Beta and will not carry over into Live, it was just to catch the HPaladins up to live numbers.

In beta Holy radiance is roughly 70-80% of the paladins heals. probably lessened by the slight nerf but higher than 50% nontheless.

I never said Holy Radiance wasn't a good tool, I was referring to the fact that it is literally the only thing that we will get at 85, Holy Radiance does not constitute multiple key components, it is exactly 1 component. And I was bringing that up more because everyone seems to think that we will get this gigantic toolbox at 85, which is not true. Instead it will be exactly like when we went from 70-80 and new skills became available and some older skill became less desirable and some newer ones (in this case just one) became more desirable (oh wait, that entire analogy didn't work since 70-80 didn't change anything for Holy Paladins, ok pretend I meant a tanking or DPS class and then it works).

The prot paladin could keep up JoL 100% of the time without impairment in other departments. We could not. The reason you want a prot paladin doing it ( wanted, rather ) is for the 100% uptime, and then the rest of the paladins ( holy paladins ) could JoW.

This entire arguement is silly since it no longer applies, but like I said it never mattered who cast it just so long as it was always up. And since we're the only ones that cared about the healing, JoL was more important for us to keep up. Are you telling me that you never heard a Paly tank complain about mana problems? Right, I thought not.

On a side note. A good healer pays no attention to the meters, or healing. A good healer is there to do his JOB. Aslong as he can keep people up. He dosent care. And nor should you.

100% wrong. A good player (which a good healer is always a good player first and foremost) is always looking at their performance to make sure they are doing everything that they possibly can. It is completely impossible to do that without looking at some sort of metric or log to see where you or your fellow players can improve. Anyone who ignores the metrics is bringing their group down, especially now that we have so many heals and how they are tied together even more so than before. I think what you mean is that we shouldn't care about being the top dog on the meter, and I absolutely agree with that. Anyone who is concerned with being the top healer in the meter instead of making sure that you're doing your upmost to keep as many people alive is just stroking their epeen.

Personally I think the spec will be fine in the end, but for everyone to keep stating that the game is over for the next month is just plain silly and truly pathetic. If that is truly is the case then I want a refund on my subscription for that month.

[kagero2024]

Lawl, you took the one thing that I said was beta and tell me that my "argument is invalid".... Gosh, I guess I should have caps Beta or used Bold or something.

Well, sorry kiddo, but I was talking about Live, I only mentioned BETA for people who were bitching about not being Tops in healing.

If that was really the only thing you took away from my post, than I'm sorry sir, you fail.

[Killora]

From Ghostcrawler: "Yes, we buffed the 5 paladin direct heals (FoL, HL, DL, HS, WoG). This is a change for both level 80 and 85."
blue.mmo-champion.com/t/27291817542/holy-paladin-hotfix/ (sorry, can't post URLs yet)
From 10/19/2010, later on in the thread it was calculated out to be exactly 30% increase in the base coefficient. This "fix" was not applied to the Beta until 10/27/2010. There are numerous blue posts all over the official healing forums stating that the change that was made applies only to the Beta and will not carry over into Live, it was just to catch the HPaladins up to live numbers

I'm fairly certain this constitutes as there being no buff on live servers, since you yourself said it was only on the beta.

I never said Holy Radiance wasn't a good tool, I was referring to the fact that it is literally the only thing that we will get at 85, Holy Radiance does not constitute multiple key components, it is exactly 1 component. And I was bringing that up more because everyone seems to think that we will get this gigantic toolbox at 85, which is not true. Instead it will be exactly like when we went from 70-80 and new skills became available and some older skill became less desirable and some newer ones (in this case just one) became more desirable (oh wait, that entire analogy didn't work since 70-80 didn't change anything for Holy Paladins, ok pretend I meant a tanking or DPS class and then it works).

Guardian of the Ancient kings ( or whatever its called cant recall the exact name ) Is the 2nd component. Thus ploral. And no one said a "Large toolbox".

This entire arguement is silly since it no longer applies, but like I said it never mattered who cast it just so long as it was always up. And since we're the only ones that cared about the healing, JoL was more important for us to keep up. Are you telling me that you never heard a Paly tank complain about mana problems? Right, I thought not.

The healing is the same either way - What is your point? Whether we do it or not is irrelevant.

Your secounds statement makes 0 sense.

100% wrong. A good player (which a good healer is always a good player first and foremost) is always looking at their performance to make sure they are doing everything that they possibly can.

I'm going to stop you right here. Looking at healing meters is probably THE useless thing and irrelevant thing to determine your performance ( as a healer ) in WoW short of the obvious. Thus the satatements saying such.

Lawl, you took the one thing that I said was beta and tell me that my "argument is invalid".... Gosh, I guess I should have caps Beta or used Bold or something.

Well, sorry kiddo, but I was talking about Live, I only mentioned BETA for people who were bitching about not being Tops in healing.

If that was really the only thing you took away from my post, than I'm sorry sir, you fail.

Well if you read my post you'd know that, infact, i did take more from your post than that.

At this point. I feel i'm getting trolled and responding to people who shouldnt be responded to.

[Aspect of Death]

Good healers do not do this:
now after the patch (not haveing 100% beacon) my fellow palas spamm FoL on everything but the tank, and try to take as much dmg as possible to gain healing from PoI. Tanks dieing and aaaaah

Cant wait for cata to come so we can start doing something else than "who get lucky and hit the target with HS/FoL first" with 80% overhealing.

Right now we are bad, and healing done is not relevent as in cata everything will change and you cant do the things ppl are doing atm.

Its a shame ppl are blinded by the meters. Try checking spells used, how much did he heal the MT, what did he do wrong?
and not OMG hes good healer because he tops healing meters (but not doing his job)

[Tuccoyote265]

First and foremost, I'm not trolling anyone, in fact that is exactly what I thought when I read your comments to my post. I responded to the post first, then you tore apart my comments, so I responded back to you clarify (even with actual links from Blizzard developers to educate you on something you are apparently unaware of). Now you are replying to that 2nd comment and yet you didn't bother to read the link from actual Blizzard developer telling you that were wrong. You seem to be matching up to the definition of trolling.

I'm fairly certain this constitutes as there being no buff on live servers, since you yourself said it was only on the beta.

Sorry if I wasn't more clear, if you had bothered to read the post you would have understood. On 10/19 the Live servers introduced a 30% healing bonus to all Paladin direct heals. Let's arbitrarily call it "Holy Bonus A" just so there is no more confusion (and since Blizz never bothered to put in patch notes). "Holy Bonus A" was not applied to the Beta servers at that time. On 10/27, "Holy Bonus A" was applied to the Beta servers.

What you and everyone else apparently is not understanding is that the comments in the patch notes for the Beta servers on 10/27 describe "Holy Bonus A", not an additional buff. They are not going to re-apply "Holy Bonus A" to Live.

Looking at healing meters is probably THE useless thing and irrelevant thing to determine your performance ( as a healer )

Just because you keep saying that does not make it the case. There literally is no other way to gauge your performance. Let's run through what you can look at without a meter: 1) did everyone live? 2) did you save anyone's life? 3) did the tank survive that nasty thing the boss does?. Now let's try to answer these: 1) everyone lived, but there were also another 4-5 healers, they could have done all of the effective healing and mine could have landed after the person was already back to 100%. 2) Well, I hit that one ranged with Lay on Hands, but I'm not sure if it hit before the Shaman's Healing Surge critted and healed him for 25K. 3) The tank did survive that nasty thing the boss does, but I think I saw Earth Shield on him, and he definitely also had the Disc Priest's PW:S on him, plus our druid's are really good at keeping their HoTs on him, so my slow ass Divine Light might have actually been completely overheal. But if you took a few seconds in between boss fights to look at your Effective Healing stats (Recount and Skada actually track not only your overall healing, but also how much of that was not overhealing, but I'm sure you already know this), then you would know for sure that not only are you being efficient with your heals (i.e. you're not duplicating heals that someone else is getting to before you), but you would know that your Lay on Hands only healed for 563 and that your Divine Lights are healing for an average of 8K (which means that your big heal is in fact not doing it's job because other healers are getting to the tank first and you should be using Flash of Light more often). I never advocated using a meter to look at how large your bar is, in fact I said just the opposite. Just one last point on this and then I won't say another word: The "Holy Bonus A" that we keep talking about, the only reason we got that buff is because a bunch of Blizzard Developers spent a weekend looking over the WoL logs from regular player's raids(there's a post by Ghostcrawler where he explained it all, but I'm too tired to look it up right now, it might be later in that same thread I included in my previous post).

[Googolplex]

Paladins can still top heal charts.

Besides Dreamwalker, there is zero chances of topping the meters if your Priests/Druids have the slightest clue.

[Zeroguard]

My alt is a holy pally, decently geared with a current 5656 gs(because obviously it means so much) but what I have noticed with the new patch even when I am on my main or on another alt is that most groups don't even want to take a holy paladin claiming that the heals are now week. Before the patch no one could raid without one. I did an ICC 25 last week, pug, we were 6 healing and I can in number 3 on every fight and on stand still fights maintained number 1 and this was when it was a 5.4kgs. I noticed that personally my heals are better since the patch but I'm wondering if its just lack of seeing a lot of holy pallies that can manage all their spells correctly and time CDs properly? It sucks because I really want to raid on her but most groups are hesitant to take a holy pally to a pug. Granted sometimes I don't like the cast time for healing but other than that I haven't seen any problems when I've been healing.

Has anyone else noticed that pugs don't want holy pallies?

Holy paladins ARE for the better as of right now, the people who say otherwise are either holy paladins that refuse to learn their spec properly or idiots that havent run with a holy paladin with decent skill with the new changes.

[Majokin]

Besides Dreamwalker

LOL....should let priests go through and collect portals guy....MUCH higher hps than palas

so long*majo

[Deleted]

Hey look if you can keep your tanks/raid alive use your CD properly and get pardon my french SH*T done, then your a good healer. Our HPS is LOW and uncle Blizzard knows this, they just have a funny attitude when it comes to admitting they fouled up.