Scorch - HS mainnuke concept

[Deleted]

Since patch I didn't have much time to do any math about this (not even to get deep into 4.0.1 changes lol), but I was wondering wheter spamming scorches to get HS wouldn't yeld more dps than with using fireball ? With faster scorches you could get pyros more often, more often there would be also pyro dot on target therefore more good time windows to use combustion etc etc etc. With talented scorch and mana-free pyros you'd lose mana only for lb and every spell could be cast while moving. Going to test it tomorrow, now it's beer time ;p - thoughts ?

Edit: Rought dummy tests shows difference like 500 dps in favor of using fireball after all (perhaps because of fb being glyphed ?) Dunno what about if I had stacked more crit (and were sober).

[DirewolfX]

Use FB for PvE DPS. At 85 where mana is a bigger issue at lower tiers, you might use some Imp. Scorch with your PvE rotation.

[Belize]

Iv'e actually tried it out and right now, by spamming scorch, you get about a 400 DPS bonus assuming you have the glyph.

[gutnbrg]

Since patch I didn't have much time to do any math about this (not even to get deep into 4.0.1 changes lol), but I was wondering wheter spamming scorches to get HS wouldn't yeld more dps than with using fireball ? With faster scorches you could get pyros more often, more often there would be also pyro dot on target therefore more good time windows to use combustion etc etc etc. With talented scorch and mana-free pyros you'd lose mana only for lb and every spell could be cast while moving. Going to test it tomorrow, now it's beer time ;p - thoughts ?

Edit: Rought dummy tests shows difference like 500 dps in favor of using fireball after all (perhaps because of fb being glyphed ?) Dunno what about if I had stacked more crit (and were sober).

i dont know about u but i cant cast pyroblast on the move 90% of the time even tho hotstreak proc'd....its really pissing me off...

[Deleted]

This rotation always made more sense in my mind, but I guess scorch isn't doing much damage, and maybe doesn't scale as much as fireball with SP? I don't know, need some math genius to come in here!

[Deleted]

i dont know about u but i cant cast pyroblast on the move 90% of the time even tho hotstreak proc'd....its really pissing me off...

/cast Pyroblast!

fix'd

there is a difference between Pyroblast and Pyroblast!

[Khazaad]

i dont know about u but i cant cast pyroblast on the move 90% of the time even tho hotstreak proc'd....its really pissing me off...

#showtooltip
/cast pyroblast!

That ought to solve your problem.

[Skarrd]

I doubt this will be effective at 85 when our crit ratings are back down to baby numbers instead of insane crit rates we're at now. Your rotation would end up being mostly scorch at 85 I imagine. As for 4.0 at 80, I dunno. It's probably viable but not on top of fireball.

[Deleted]

Iv'e actually tried it out and right now, by spamming scorch, you get about a 400 DPS bonus assuming you have the glyph.

You sir are genius! how could anyone not have seen this before you!? /endsarcasm

Assumption math, what "seems" higher, anecdotal stories, parses, and 1 minute dummy sessions do not warrant actual conclusions. So many variables can be included, such as the amount of times you crit, casting a million spells at 40% crit rating might end up to be about 40% crit, but a 1 minute parse you can have a 100% crit rating on scorch just by getting very lucky.

Fireball has been proven to be the best PvE DPS spell at the moment, even over FFB. If FB is going to be replaced, it will be by FFB once mastery levels are considerably higher.

[Kosic]

My mage is a fresh lvl 80, i got about 29% crit, 20% haste, and i'm 4/32 talents.
I did an ICC25 pug run the other week. We had a few mages, 1-2 arcane, 2-3 as fire, all better gear than me. We had a mage doing Scorch spamming, and his dps was something around 7-9k, mine was around 11-13k. He might of been a bad mage, but on marrowgar he cast a total of 97 scorches, with LB, and HS procs.

For the first 3-4 bosses, this other mages DPS was soo terrible that he actually messaged me and asked what my DPS cycle was, as soon as i explained it, his dps went up by about 2-3k dps. So showing that FB > Scorch in this case.

[Deleted]

My mage is a fresh lvl 80, i got about 29% crit, 20% haste, and i'm 4/32 talents.
I did an ICC25 pug run the other week. We had a few mages, 1-2 arcane, 2-3 as fire, all better gear than me. We had a mage doing Scorch spamming, and his dps was something around 7-9k, mine was around 11-13k. He might of been a bad mage, but on marrowgar he cast a total of 97 scorches, with LB, and HS procs.

For the first 3-4 bosses, this other mages DPS was soo terrible that he actually messaged me and asked what my DPS cycle was, as soon as i explained it, his dps went up by about 2-3k dps. So showing that FB > Scorch in this case.

Because Marrowgar is not a long fight, what's amazing of the Scorch spamming rotation is that you can use it for as long as you want and in any condition, in Marrowgar, which is a short and quite static fight FB > Scorch, but in fights like, for example, Blood Council then Scorch > FB

As said above there are a lot of variables we have to take into account and just comparing 3 minute fights we are not going to solve anything, but what is clear is that in environments in which you have to move a lot Scorch spamming should do a lot more damage than FB, also notice that in long fights you will not lose time by evocating and in general a lot more Impact/HS procs will occur and more impact procs in a fight like lich king means a lot of adds affected by LB and Ignite.

[Khazaad]

but what is clear is that in environments in which you have to move a lot Scorch spamming should do a lot more damage than FB

Because it's really hard to use FB while stationary and switch to Scorch when moving without HS proc or LB in need of refreshing?

[Aunor]

From what i have seen in new raid instances, there are no more saurfang and blood queen tipe of fights where u stand in one spot and nuke, Most of the fights are movement fights big time it seems, so i bet that scorch and pyro will find their spot in smart mages rotation on some parts of those movement fights, but i doubt it will ever be a rotation for full encounter witch is better than fireball or ffb.

[Deleted]

Because it's really hard to use FB while stationary and switch to Scorch when moving without HS proc or LB in need of refreshing?

No, but you can lose a FB casting while doing this, Scorch casting is not lost when you start moving so you can react better to the fight mechanics.
I was just exposing what happens, some fights FB only or combined with Scorch will be better and in some Scorch spamming will be better, also I have to add that doing some testing in raid environment I've found that DPS is more or less equal with both rotations but total damage with Scorch > FB, it's just an experimental value and can be or not be real but is what I have found

[Deleted]

My mage is a fresh lvl 80, i got about 29% crit, 20% haste, and i'm 4/32 talents.

OFFTOPIC: Bullshit is you say you do 11-13k with these stats... stop lying too yourself son.

ONTOPIC: Scorch (in cata) will NEVER replace FB in your rotation. No math, no stats, no simulations needed. Mkay?!

[nemex]

Tier 3 Hot Streak scales with Crit. The higher crit you have, the less of a chance it procs and more of your hot streaks are going to be from Tier 4's contribution. From EJ Testing the threshold where Tier 3 becomes nearly useless and nearly all hot streaks come from Tier 4 (2-consecutive crits) is around 25%.

Your theory of more hot streaks because of more casts is only applicable under a low, low crit scenario similar to what we will be seeing at the beginning of Cata. It is a strict DPS-loss on live at majority of gear levels at level 80.

EDIT: Another note; with the amount of movement seen and required in every hardmode in Cataclysm raiding this far, as well as pretty much every normal mode (they said they're going to make normal more difficult, hardmode is still going to be a significant leap in difficulty), Scorch with Firestarter is going to be essential to raiding for fire mages. Get ready to Scorch, a lot.

Also, Though Fireball is higher DPET than Scorch, you also have to think that if you're trying to avoid using Mage Armor, you're going to be casting less and less Fireballs on fights with either more movement (obviously) or more AoE. Every Fireball you cast is one less Living Bomb or AoE. More AoE or Multi-target-oriented fights are going to be seeing Scorch as a primary nuke, unless you enjoy raiding as Fire with Mage Armor on and being restricted in many ways.

[takolin]

OFFTOPIC: Bullshit is you say you do 11-13k with these stats... stop lying too yourself son.

ONTOPIC: Scorch (in cata) will NEVER replace FB in your rotation. No math, no stats, no simulations needed. Mkay?!

Have fun being oom after 3 minutes then from the way things look. You will need to cast a considerable amount of scorches in order to not oom if things don't change.

[Deleted]

Gear will fix it. Spamming scorches not to oom will maybe only be the case in early blue gear.

Consider the fact that you have alot of ways to keep you mana up.

EDIT: I was sceptical about mana problems at first also. Though i've seen quite a few beta raids where mages have no problem with mana. Nor are they spamming scorches

[takolin]

Gear will fix it. Spamming scorches not to oom will maybe only be the case in early blue gear.

Consider the fact that you have alot of ways to keep you mana up.

EDIT: I was sceptical about mana problems at first also. Though i've seen quite a few beta raids where mages have no problem with mana. Nor are they spamming scorches

The 3-4 minute oom marks are oom after using Evo and mana gems.