Should more difficult specs do more damage?

[vesseblah]

Do you think there should be a "reward" for playing a more challenging spec? Even if it is just a minor one?

No, you're looking at the problem from completely wrong perspective. Rewarding people for playing right class is totally fucked up way to design game. All it creates is unhappy customers when you realize 80 levels later that you picked wrong class and will forever be second class dps.

All specs should be roughtly equal in complexity and damage. All specs should pull some crappy 1k dps if you spam one button, and when you mash all 10 buttons in right order regardless of spec all should still do the equal maximum dps.

[Deleted]

I think there's more to it than that.

A simple spec is more easy to maintain in complex fights that require lots of target switching and movement. A complex spec is more volatile depending on the encounter.

So in practice, the simple spec may still outperform the complex spec is some situations.


Ideally of course, all specs would have a comparable level of complexity, but that simply isn't the truth. As long as different specs are different, so will the complexity. Having simple specs that outperform complex ones simply dumbs down the game. There is no choice.

In BC e.g. Beastmaster was the top Hunter spec and the rotation could easily be macro'd into a single button. This made Hunters very simple and unrewarding. If MM and Survival would have had a slight edge, then at least there would have been an element of choice.

"Do I trust myself to execute this rotation properly in a complex encounter or shall I take the "safer" spec?"

If complexity isn't rewarded, there is no choice. And most people are willing to give up a small amount of their DPS in favor of an easy rotation. Simply because it gives them more time to focus on the actual encounters.

[Tziva]

Complexity of rotation should not necessarily be correlated with higher DPS, but skill of the player should be. In an ideal world, all DPS classes would be about similar in difficulty to execute (easy to handle the basics, challenging but not fuckall-impossible to perform perfectly), and all DPS classes would have a rotation at least complex enough to show an obvious divide between the best players and the bad players.

Some classes were recently buttonmashingly easy and lots of people liked it and complained when that changed... but really, how lame was it that you could be a damn fine player and still barely beat out that drooling retard in your PuG on DPS?

[MAGAmobile]

Complexity shouldn't make it a better thing. The simple things in life are the things we tend to over complicate the most. No matter how hard or easy something can be, people who put more effort and have more knowledge will almost always do better then those who don't, regardless of the task at hand.

[Aildaris]

I think there's more to it than that.

A simple spec is more easy to maintain in complex fights that require lots of target switching and movement. A complex spec is more volatile depending on the encounter.

So in practice, the simple spec may still outperform the complex spec is some situations.


Ideally of course, all specs would have a comparable level of complexity, but that simply isn't the truth. As long as different specs are different, so will the complexity. Having simple specs that outperform complex ones simply dumbs down the game. There is no choice.

In BC e.g. Beastmaster was the top Hunter spec and the rotation could easily be macro'd into a single button. This made Hunters very simple and unrewarding. If MM and Survival would have had a slight edge, then at least there would have been an element of choice.

"Do I trust myself to execute this rotation properly in a complex encounter or shall I take the "safer" spec?"

If complexity isn't rewarded, there is no choice. And most people are willing to give up a small amount of their DPS in favor of an easy rotation. Simply because it gives them more time to focus on the actual encounters.

That isn't necessarily true. Retadins were an extremely easy to play spec before the new patch, but fights that required me to stop fighting the main target for longer than 15 seconds would result in a DPS lost because my stacks of SoT would fall off thus reducing my damage. So just because one spec is more complex to pull off, it doesn't mean it does less damage on fights with specific mechanics.

I think that all specs should be as close to equal in complexity and damage as possible. If one spec is better than other specs simply because of complexity, everyone would have to role that spec and most people play their current specs because they enjoy it. Playing a game you don't enjoy is a bad sign! With the sharing of buffs going on in cata, if we had certain classes better simply because of their spec the game will be worst than vanilla was! Atleast paladins were brought to buff people the entire time...

[BoomChickn]

I say minor edge, sort of how simpler classes have a higher minimum, they should have a bit of a lower maximum. Not everyone is perfect, and people can pick their spec based on their own skill and "feel" for the spec. Of course the best will probably take the most complex specs in this case, along with min/maxers. And this is what blizz doesn't want. I remember them giving the whole presentation about people respeccing for a theoretical dps increase, and very small ones at that.

[Deleted]

if u think u cant do dps with your class u need to know better your class ... train more at dummys ... try to think a bit like making your own rotation and think ways to prove it. same for healing or tanks except is harder to train that.

all classes are fairly balanced,

in the case of pvp if u think that your class is not balanced is because u dont know your class 100%. except the rogues that are always OP for cloth classes in pvp.
just in case read some forums for some opinions , etc.

Just try harder and u can get your objectives

[Ferous]

I have a Mage, and she is Arcane... She does more damage though, than my Rogue that is more geared.

edit - The problem is not having a class that has a complex rotation or a learning curve, I think all classes and specs should be this way. Arcane is too easy for instance. They need to make it more complex IMO with more indicators to watch or something, much like Fire.

[Vaelynn]

I 'love' how everyone assumes arcane mage is easy to play and feral druid hard. I have both toons and I play them well (meaning I top the charts in raids). There really is hardly any noticeable difference in their difficulty. The playstyle is just different! For those of you who say arcane mages are easy (but have never played one yourself), let's see you try one in HM and still do the same damage as top mages with the same gear as you (after all, if it's so easy and skill isn't a factor, then all mages with the same gear should do about the same damage right?) I assure you that a huge range still exists, just like among feral druids.

I get the feeling that people who say mages are so faceroll are basing their experience on heroic 5-man instances, where dps is not even a concern anyway.

/end rant!

[SoulPoetry]

we pick arcane mages because (aside from CDs) there are very few buttons to press, while ferals are/were notorioius for having to press a multitude of abilities while watching several debuffs. it's nothing bad, merely the design of the class and ofc skill exists, that's why i said a good player should do more than an average player regardless of class and 'difficulty'.

[SilkforCalde]

Absurd. Of course not.

[Deleted]

Logically yes, but implementing it would be hell. I play a marks hunter, so I've gone from being pretty faceroll to an absolute mess with focus. Currently I'm a bit shaky but I feel as though once I become better at managing my focus I should be able to do more damage than when I had mana as I'm working much harder to maintain DPS.

What really annoys me is the cocky faceroll players, there used to be an arcane mage I was guilded with who lived and breathed for doing amazing DPS and rubbing everyone's face in it, making videos of "best dps eu" blah de blah. Rediculous.

[Xadion]

This is actually an interesting read...

My viewpoint in the matter is this.. (I voted: All specs should be equal)
The better balanced everything is the less ranting there will be about the matter. If everyone can do the same single target stationary dummy dps with (and without) raidbuffs, as well as AoE (scaling linear with the amount of targets). Then I think alot the the community would see all classes as balanced and realize that the mechanics of the different fights and players skills are the factors that really set people appart in the dps race.
(This is ofcourse very hard to achieve without making all the classes all too similar, with that said I think Blizzard is doing a great job. Compared to all the tons of other mmo's that I've played)

With that said...
Complexity in DPS is a reward in it self, if you are a skilled player and you are doing good with a very complex class. Then you deserve recognition for that.
I played Feral Druid DPS in most of WotLK, becuase it was somewhat complex amd different. I got respect from the others in my guild playing simpler classes (with gear and dps roughly the same).
A pad on the back and a friendly smile says "damn, you're good" is more reward than just doing 10% more dps because your class is a little harder to play.
I guess that for some it's quite the opposite, many people wants an effective tradeoff (higher dps) for making an effort (compared to real, life that could be money for working extra hard or long).
I can understand that and I'm like that to, when it comes to real life.
Computer game entertainment and sports that don't offer actual rewards should be about the spirit of the game and to have fun, right?

And a little thought twister (if I have missed in a post somewhere...)

If a complex class do more dps. Then you could tune down your effort (effectively slacking) until you make the same DPS as the simpler classes.
So a complex class slacking, should still make the same dps as a simple class slacking? (else it would mean nothing for complex classes to make more dps...)

Are we judged by the minimum of our efforts?*

Then judge me on this... I'm not making the effort to read my own reply to correct grammar or make it reader-friendly.

Have a nice day everyone

[Deleted]

@Topic - No.

[robertsmb]

Yes, more complex spec's and classes should be rewarded for playing their complexities, but on a scale of player skill.

Ive played an Enhance Shaman since alliance could have them at level 70. My class has ALWAYS been a class that rely's on a complex "priority" list and not a set rotation. My class can not do any competitive dps by being lacsidasical and not understanding what to hit in what order based on whats going on in the fight.

With that being said, My class as ALSO always been 2nd rate DPS. Ive never been able to beat equally skilled mages or warlocks,... or fury warriors in ICC on max dps done. I have, however, outplayed similarly geared people of any spec and class, and by defalt, outdps'd them. Ive set multiple DPS records on worldoflogs.com and wowmeteronline in heroic ICC 10 and 25 man, and I play my class as good as the best shaman in the world. I think is a very nice concept that if I play my class 100% right, and someone else is kinda sorta slipping, that I can pull ahead on the damage meter.

What do not agree with at all is Arcane mages who have 89% of their total dmg output coming from mashing 1 button and doing 3k more DPS than me.... in 245 and 251 gear. =( This is what Ive seen since 4.0 hit.

If you have to manage dot timers great. If you have to make sure your debuffs are up before using abilities great. If you have to hit 1 button over and over to do 16k dps, something is wrong.

[Ryukaar]

Yes and no. Higher complexity specs and classes should have a minor edge over more simple ones but not to reward them for playing on "higher difficulty" but to balance classes in variable situations. I personaly havent playied neither arcane mage nor feral druid at end game but this applies to all roles. Through out WotLK prot paladins were very simple to play and easily rivaled or even bested other tank classes in most fights. Resto druids were like this as well in their role.
The reason id want to see minor difference between complex and simple specs is to show blizzard the way to find actuall balance by then making the simple specs bit more complex.

[Brittany]

Personally I don't think everything should be equal, but not in regards to difficult specs.

I just don't think a "shaman" hitting with an axe would hurt me as much as being set on fire by a mage or cleaved by a warrior with a big sword.

Realism should set some classes/specs as higher damage than others.

[Popellord]

Personally I don't think everything should be equal, but not in regards to difficult specs.

I just don't think a "shaman" hitting with an axe would hurt me as much as being set on fire by a mage or cleaved by a warrior with a big sword.

Realism should set some classes/specs as higher damage than others.

That would be the worst. Even if you are skilled you can't do more damage then someone who smashes one button.
I think a more complex class schould do more damage but not very much, so you have one stable and easy rotation and one hard which could cause a dps loss or if you are really good, a bit higher dps.

Edit: Also it gives the people with skill the possibility to maximise it. If you have to press 1-2-3-4 you can't really use your skill. But if you have an complex priority you can have a little bit more damage.

[SoulPoetry]

I just don't think a "shaman" hitting with an axe would hurt me as much as being set on fire by a mage or cleaved by a warrior with a big sword.

Realism should set some classes/specs as higher damage than others.

either troll, or ironically, if you're going for realism, they would all kill you.

[DismalNether]

Complexity shouldn't make it a better thing. The simple things in life are the things we tend to over complicate the most. No matter how hard or easy something can be, people who put more effort and have more knowledge will almost always do better then those who don't, regardless of the task at hand.

Yes but two equally skilled players should not be distinguished between eachother because one took the simpler spec.