Ret: Mastery/Haste

[Leolis]

Now this is just to bring up a thought I have been having lately after reading a bunch of threads and what not about how people are going about doing their dps. Im looking at the stat priorities and what not and everyone seems to be saying we are in one hell of a mess in terms of dps, Zealotry/Inqusition (which I have no doubt one or the other or both will change) blow and the sky is falling.

Well what if we looked back at this and went Mastery/Haste as primary stats here. This is based off how much I have seen AoW proc, which procs a lot and I have noticed times where HoL procs like 7 times in a row (lucky gg). Well lets say we could get Mastery to 20% proc chance and get haste of course to cap or soft cap, 22 or 20% i think. If this becomes the case then what we get is a consistent flow of HoL/AoW and alot of Auto Swing damage. We basically should focus on our procs and how to control them.

Its just after seeing how poorly our judgement hits and really looking at our spells its like gg like 4 spells you use actively in terms of doing damage are needed and the other half are fillers so why not focus more so on trying to make the 4 spells you do use and find a way to control them better to where you use them more often.

So really we look at a scenario where your haste is going nuts with your CS, your auto strikes which feed into procs creating AoW and HoL, your mastery feeding into the haste granting ALOT more HoL so really you find yourself using TV much more often and then you see yourself when it boils down to it you have the good CS, (HoW if available) and Exor at hand but you will find TV is being used alot more then ever and you can see big strings of TV bursts all because you controlled your Haste/Mastery to get a great proc chance. Then of course you get raid buffed with all the haste from that and well BL/Hero and well gg.

Reason I bring this up is because it appears just going about this flat and normal like always is only giving bad results and I just thought throwing this out of the box may actually help alot of rets. I could very well be wrong but really seeing a ton of TVs going off in a row seems like a good thing to me. After all it hits like a truck.

[BDF]

All you've done is stated that more haste will give more procs, and that more mastery will give more mastery procs.

We can't argue with that, however you've presented no reasons as to why mastery would be better than the same amount of crit rating or haste(even beyond the cap). If you're going to suggest a radically different stat weighting method you must provide some math backing you up, otherwise you're just misleading people who might not know any better.

[Badpaladin]

There's no good reason to stack haste past the softcap unless you can get CS's cooldown down to 1.5 seconds(good luck), and mastery sucks for numerous reasons.

[Gilgemesh]

ATM all of the simulation models show that Haste>Crit>mastery, with combinations of current gear. That does not mean we should actively avoid mastery as it still provides a dps boost, it is still more beneficial to reforge mastery to other stats. If I had to guess, I'd say a month into cataclysm we'll see a rebuild of the ret paladin mastery, at least to some degree. Other stats are simply too much stronger than mastery for us and that is the sort of thing blizzard doesn't want.

[Deleted]

some issues:
1) currently, mastery itself is broken. some attacks that you replace with a TV or even an inqui proc could have done more damage potentially. for example, a TV hit does 9K, an AoW exorcism crit does somewhere around 15-20K (don't know the exact number). in this case, it would have been better to use the AoW than the HoL.
2) HoL is a proc on an autoattack. if you have a 3.6s weapon, 25% haste (44% after buffs), and 20% chance to proc HoL, you get 2.5 attack speed, or on average one proc every 12.5 seconds. in that same time, CS hits 4 times, and you have used 3 fillers, which means that you on average get 2 TV in (from HP, not HoL). to make sure we can use a HoL proc as every filler, you need either 20% mastery and an 0.3s attack speed (1100% haste if you have a 3.6s weapon, which reduces your CS speed to 0.375 seconds)) or a 3s speed weapon (120% haste, which is a CS of 1.875) and 100% mastery. in both cases, apart from the fact that these numbers are unachievable even with full haste/mastery gear and gems, you're going to come into issues with that you don't even have room for a filler and just can spam CS/CS/CS/TV. that means AoW, zealotry and even HoL itself (the reason that you want to get these scores) is wasted. even inquisition will be broken. and what about seal damage? stacking 5 stacks of SoT within 1.5 seconds, and having it tick every .25 seconds would be massive.

[Deleted]

I'm not on beta so can't say for sure. But surely if escpially in starter raid gear(t11) that you cant reach the new soft haste cap to get to to cs-filler-cs.

Surely mastery would go up in value as the spare gcd's can then potentially be used for something useful.
(this point is obviously moot if it is possilbe to reach this cap relatively easily)

[PalliesThrowStuff]

Well, Blizzard stated, and I suspect we'll see it implemented soon, that they'd considered making Zealotry affect Divine Purpose as well as Crusader Strike.

What this means, is that while Zealotry is up, any time you gain Holy Power, you gain 3, so you'll spend a lot of your time just pressing consecutive TVs, because if the first one doesn't get a DP, then HoL might fire off, giving you another 40% chance, this fixes Zealotry, IMO, to be less 'wasteful'.

AW and Inquisition play really well together, even if Inq without AW is only a moderate DPS increase.

It's not much of a stretch to imagine that HoL is going to fall into line with some tweaking pretty soon.

Rather than the raw numbers of the stat, I'd rather they adjust the actual effect to make it more appealing, such as instead of directly saying "HP Ability" it instead just specified the use of Inquisition and Templar's Verdict, for TV, it becomes free, full-strength, and also causes a 10% Holy damage DoT, while Inquisition is free, full-length, and also reduces incoming damage by 10%.

Then Inq becomes the go-to ability for HoL procs in PvP, while increasing the total effectiveness of the HoL proc itself, also the sum worth of Inquisition, and altering our stat weights, without monkeying with the rotation we're used to.

[Leolis]

All you've done is stated that more haste will give more procs, and that more mastery will give more mastery procs.

We can't argue with that, however you've presented no reasons as to why mastery would be better than the same amount of crit rating or haste(even beyond the cap). If you're going to suggest a radically different stat weighting method you must provide some math backing you up, otherwise you're just misleading people who might not know any better.

I was not trying to mislead anyone but throw a suggestion that may actually help. No I do not know the math regarding it but it still either way does not hurt to see what other options we may have.

[Shoolace]

Lvl 80 isn't important in a month. Come lvl 85 then stats may add up different. Alot of tier has mastery on it, so I wouldn't worry about gemming or enchanting it. Plus the new haste to spells aren't in affect if I have read right.

[zcks]

Sure if you could get shitloads of mastery to go with the shitloads of haste you need to reach the soft cap it could be good. The underlining problem remains the same though & that problem is that the spec has way to much uncontrollable RNG & procs which are determined by that RNG which are largely coming only from auto attacks which causes the spec to suffer greatly in pvp & movement based fights.

[Butosai]

There's no good reason to stack haste past the softcap unless you can get CS's cooldown down to 1.5 seconds(good luck), and mastery sucks for numerous reasons.

a 1.5 second cs /drool

[Brashara]

There's no good reason to stack haste past the softcap unless you can get CS's cooldown down to 1.5 seconds(good luck), and mastery sucks for numerous reasons.

Its true our mastery isn't the best DPS increase in the world, but its not horrible either, IMO.

Is it significantly better than crit? I'm assuming it will be good after we amass enough of it.

Either way, ret's DPS isn't pathetic, even if it isn't the kind of DPS i'd like (Physical isn't holy no more divine storm QQ), but I love our mastery. The Hand of Light is such a cool idea, and I really like how dynamic our rotation has become because of variable holy power gain and hand of light.

I'd rather have a slightly underpowered mastery like Hand of Light than a good one like Frost DKs (More frost damage) which is boring.

Remember, blizzard clearly said mastery was a secondary stat. This obviously means Mastery/Crit/Haste will be better for some classes and worse for others.

Don't worry so much about it being insanely good or bad. Haste has just as much potential to be good for us as any other class. Our haste stacking is the same as fire mages stacking crit or Frost DKs stacking Mastery or Arcane mages stacking haste.

[Badpaladin]

Mastery is worth ~1/3 of crit point-for-point, so you're going to need a motherfucking assload of it to make any claims of greatness. Mastery is bad because the TV that procs comes with a price for damage dealt, and thus is only used well as a filler. If you use it in place of CS your HP cycle will be slower and deal less damage overall if DP procs each time, and if you use it at 3HP(you won't really have a choice in this case) it can either net 0 damage for that GCD, deal half a TV's damage for the GCD or lose half a TV's damage for that GCD. Crit on the other hand has absolutely no negative aspects to it.

[Brashara]

Fine, then crit is better than mastery. Thats OKAY. The design wasn't that Haste, Crit and Mastery would all be equally good. That was never the intention. Its a secondary stat. The three are going to have different DPS values. Its a kinda fun mastery to play around with and it might have some PvP usage later, or it might be awful for that too. If thats as far as our mastery goes, thats OKAY.

I'd rather they work on inquisition and fix that then making a secondary stat EXACTLY as good as the others.

[Aramore]

Actually I'm pretty sure that Blizz intended to make all secondary stats as close as possible to prevent the game just being "Read a spreadsheet see the best stat stack that stat, if gear doesn't have that stat it's rubbish" or "this stats sucks if my gear has it then I won't use it " ala ArP.

[Brashara]

Actually I'm pretty sure that Blizz intended to make all secondary stats as close as possible to prevent the game just being "Read a spreadsheet see the best stat stack that stat, if gear doesn't have that stat it's rubbish" or "this stats sucks if my gear has it then I won't use it " ala ArP.

I don't think that Mastery is SO bad that mastery gear will be avoided by paladins even if it is an upgrade. I haven't seen any real math on it, but the day the patch dropped I reforged everything to mastery and was pulling like 8k on a dummy. Then I reforged everything to haste and when I couldn't, to mastery, and I pulled 8.4k DPS on a dummy. Maybe they've changed things since then or i'm just bad, but that doesn't seem AWFUL.

[Badpaladin]

This is how it works logically. I'm far too lazy to do the algebra behind it as I have a 4 day weekend and plan to watch many kung foo movies instead of do algebra. Ignore my previous comments about "TV during a GCD's time" for the sake of this, because I'm going to talk about HP cycles only.

DP procs every time:

@0HP -- TV -> CS -> filler -> 3HP versus CS -> TV -> CS -> 3HP. Not only does the first require DP to procs twice, but it does less overall damage anyways. You've then kept CS on cooldown for more than three seconds as well, and you generally want to use CS every time it's up unless using a true 3HP TV, Inquisition, etc. You get the idea.

@1HP -- TV -> CS -> 3HP versus CS -> TV -> 3HP. They look equal, right? Well you're right, they are equal.

@2HP -- TV -> 3HP versus CS -> 3HP. At first glance the first seems the obvious choice, right? Well that's deceptive. If you look at the next HP cycle, you'll notice that if you went with the latter and pulled a "double TV", assuming DP procs every time, you'd start the next cycle with 2HP in the bag whereas with the first you'd only end up starting with 1HP.

DP doesn't proc at all:

@0HP -- TV -> CS -> filler -> CS -> filler -> CS versus CS -> TV -> CS -> filler -> CS. Latter is better obviously. The reason why is you'll net more TV's in the time you're DPSing if you cycles look like this. Two TV per 6 abilities versus 2 TV per 7 abilities.

@1HP -- TV -> CS -> filler -> CS versus CS -> TV -> CS. Again, second is better for obvious reasons.

@3HP -- CS -> 3HP versus TV-> CS 3HP. Equal assuming DP does not proc at all, but that may or may not be the case so it's still "iffy".

I'm not going to model specific procs.

That's why our Mastery isn't very good.

[Brashara]

All i'm saying is its like a 400 DPS increase between reforging everything to Haste and reforging everything to mastery. So I dunno that its a huge deal to worry about or expect MORE balancing.

[Nillo]

All i'm saying is its like a 400 DPS increase between reforging everything to Haste and reforging everything to mastery. So I dunno that its a huge deal to worry about or expect MORE balancing.

The fun thing is if you wouldn't have reforged anything to mastery you would probably do another 400 more dps. And did you really hit the dummy for several hours to wash out the uber amount of RNG it adds to your dps?
And btw 400 dps is an extremely huge deal.

[Brashara]

Its a pretty big deal, but its not an AVOID THIS STAT ON GEAR AT ALL COSTS deal like ArP was for retadins in 3.3.5