Necessary update to combo point system

[br0keit]

The combo point system in its current state is is very lacking. In classic it was fine because there weren't as complex rotations as today so it must be changed. The idea of a target held combo point system is old news and I propose should be changed to a self held combo point system. This would be like the current implementation of the paladin holy power system with the exception that rogue CPs will fall off a certain time after exiting combat (maybe 5 seconds?). Of course this would also involve the removal/change of the new upcoming ability redirect. It could be replaced by an actually useful raid ability, unlike smoke bomb or combat readiness (really a ghetto "bubble" and a 10 yd radius target block that probably wont be usable in raids?). This system shouldn't require any updating of abilities but will make the rogue a bit more flexible.

[Irony]

Rogues have been asking for this since 2005. You got redirect, be happy.

[Thenakedninja]

That's just what rogues need... better yet why not just have the game autoplay your toon for you as well since that's practically where the class is going.

[underdogba]

Making an analogy to holy power is actually very weak, because ret paladins also suffer from target-switching in a pve environment, due to the need to build up Seal of Truth stacks (oftentimes forcing them to use Righteousness, which is a lower sustained-dps seal).

[Deleted]

That brings in mind holy power.

Edit: @ above post. Rogues got no seal system, thus they wouldn't suffer should this happen.

Also OT: I do not agree with the idea. I pretty much like the way rogues are.

[ruzhy6]

Fairly certain holy power falls off over time as well if you aren't in combat.

Positive melee range is under 10yd (forget exact... 6yd?) If you are in melee range to hit them, the same applies to your target. So yea, it will parry any attack that is able to be parried.

[Tholl]

How are people comparing holy power to combo points?

You don't lose holy power from switching targets. You do lose SoT stacks yes, but that is just like a rogue having to apply poisons to a target. It takes more hits for more stacks etc.

Being able to switch targets while keeping combo points would be a godsend while not having to worry about a long ass CD to do so. Rogues lose TONS of potential DPS due to this fact, far more than any pally will.

(And yes, I play both classes).

[DiscostewSM]

I wonder if Bandit's Guile has anything to do with them not even considering a change like this, since that talent is new (meaning they want people to use it), yet it forces rogues to become non-target switching in practically any situation where they can get the most time on the target. People already think Bandit's Guile is a bad design, as do I.

[Brashara]

How are people comparing holy power to combo points?

You don't lose holy power from switching targets. You do lose SoT stacks yes, but that is just like a rogue having to apply poisons to a target. It takes more hits for more stacks etc.

Being able to switch targets while keeping combo points would be a godsend while not having to worry about a long ass CD to do so. Rogues lose TONS of potential DPS due to this fact, far more than any pally will.

(And yes, I play both classes).

Rogues build poisons with a 1.8 and a 1.4. Paladins build stacks with a 3.7.

[Deleted]

You don't lose holy power from switching targets. You do lose SoT stacks yes, but that is just like a rogue having to apply poisons to a target. It takes more hits for more stacks etc.

You're comparing SoT stacking with only white hits on a 2.9+ weapon swing timer to poison stacking on 2 seperate 1.3 - 1.8 weapon swing timers + abilities proccing poisons. Granted, poisons don't have a 100% chance to procc, but are usually stacked way faster than SoT will ever be.
I don't think that's a fair game, so both target swaps have a downside.

Rogue downside is the loss of Combopoints, while the Paladin downside is the loss of SoT.
Stacking SoT up to 5 takes about 14-15 seconds.
How long does building up 5 Combopoints take?

[sicness]

And yet again my answer to these types of threads is you don't realize how overpowered it would be to use finishers on any random target you choose in pvp. There's a reason redirect has a cool down, because if it didn't or combo points were on the rogue then your finishers would be overpowered.

[DiscostewSM]

And yet again my answer to these types of threads is you don't realize how overpowered it would be to use finishers on any random target you choose in pvp. There's a reason redirect has a cool down, because if it didn't or combo points were on the rogue then your finishers would be overpowered.

Are rogues really doing that well at lvl 85 to assume that having this change would result in the class being OP, or is your assumption of them being OP with this change based on a level at or less than lvl 80? When Cata comes out, lvl 85 will be what they base PvP on, like how WotLK was based on lvl 80, and TBC at lvl 70.

[Delon]

Making an analogy to holy power is actually very weak, because ret paladins also suffer from target-switching in a pve environment, due to the need to build up Seal of Truth stacks (oftentimes forcing them to use Righteousness, which is a lower sustained-dps seal).

We have deadly poison that we need to stack.

Paladins still have the better of the two systems.

[terrih91]

We have deadly poison that we need to stack.

Paladins still have the better of the two systems.

ur also using weapons that are way faster. urs are 1.8 and 1.4 speed if im not mistaken and they use 3.5-3.7 speed weapons and only one of them. doesnt shiv apply the poision 100% of the time too? seems like you have a pretty good version of the system. your not thinking things through here and you should take some time to consider your posting and look at some of the variables.

[Alfador]

We're fine. God forbid some part of your class actually makes you think. They're called tradeoffs, and classes have them to be different or else everything would be homogenized and boring. If you're assassination deadly poison stacks damn near instantly now anyway. Far be it from blizzard to actually ask you to make an insightful choice on which poison you should use in a fight...

[br0keit]

Rogues build poisons with a 1.8 and a 1.4. Paladins build stacks with a 3.7.

Deadly poison has a 30% application chance so even with a 1.4 weapon that means it should take an average of around 4.2 seconds per application of poison compared to 3.7s to apply SoT. Paladins get a scalable damage bonus when full stacks are applied and rogues get opposite hand flat value procs so they are fairly even. Target switching should affect both classes equally on the basis of dot stacks but the paladin gains the advantage of being able to transfer his big abilities at will while a rogue is left to a 1m cd ability or has to start from scratch.

And yet again my answer to these types of threads is you don't realize how overpowered it would be to use finishers on any random target you choose in pvp. There's a reason redirect has a cool down, because if it didn't or combo points were on the rogue then your finishers would be overpowered.

This is the reason for the paladin/holy power simile. A paladin can do the same thing without the target switch limitation. Theres nothing stopping a paladin thats still in/recently was combat to run over and TV a new target. Paladin "finishers" also dont cost resources either allowing them to do them at any time assuming they're in control of their character.

The problem with having a PVE balanced game with PVP thrown in is you will always run into issues of pvp balance. The best benefits for a class should not be overtaken by the rare possible issues that MAY arise during a part of the game that the minority take advantage of.

[Speaknoevil]

I laughed when I read the paladin responses.

Your seal stacks isn't RNG, poisons are.

You have no right to complain, Shiv costs 34 energy with a 1.4speed weapon, which is VERY high for an ability that is incapable of a critical strike.

That being said, I shiv crippling in PvP non stop.

[sicness]

Are rogues really doing that well at lvl 85 to assume that having this change would result in the class being OP, or is your assumption of them being OP with this change based on a level at or less than lvl 80? When Cata comes out, lvl 85 will be what they base PvP on, like how WotLK was based on lvl 80, and TBC at lvl 70.

I've seen cata arena videos and rogues are fine, overpowered actually with recuperate. To be able to use your finishers on any target you want is overpowered.

---------- Post added 2010-11-12 at 02:37 PM ----------

This is the reason for the paladin/holy power simile. A paladin can do the same thing without the target switch limitation. Theres nothing stopping a paladin thats still in/recently was combat to run over and TV a new target. Paladin "finishers" also dont cost resources either allowing them to do them at any time assuming they're in control of their character.

The problem with having a PVE balanced game with PVP thrown in is you will always run into issues of pvp balance. The best benefits for a class should not be overtaken by the rare possible issues that MAY arise during a part of the game that the minority take advantage of.

No matter how similar they are you can't compare the two because they're used completely different by classes that have completely different abilities.

Just as many people try to compare rogue abilities with druid ones they simply don't work because the druid has different abilities and play differently no matter how similar they are to a rogue.

[Malthanis]

The way I've always understood it was that the combo points represented the rogue's "set up" for the finishing blow. As such, it wouldn't make much sense for the rogue to be able to "store" the combo points on themselves. The Redirect ability is more of a representation of how the rogue is able to mentally refocus himself on another target, thus transferring combo points. It most likely has a cooldown because maintaining that level of concentration to keep yourself in a perpetual "combat focus" would probably be incredibly difficult.

[Speaknoevil]

Redirect is amazing.

And having it non-stop would be overpowered.