Hand of Light in 4.0.3

[Tacos]

ok I understand the stat weight part of it, but with as hard as TV hits, wouldn't it be the more logical choice to use that ability over a crusader strike if it was consuming a mastery proc?

[Badpaladin]

caaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrlll....

Oh...my....god!

ok I understand the stat weight part of it, but with as hard as TV hits, wouldn't it be the more logical choice to use that ability over a crusader strike if it was consuming a mastery proc?

That's what's so misleading about it. I'll quote:

This is how it works logically. I'm far too lazy to do the algebra behind it as I have a 4 day weekend and plan to watch many kung foo movies instead of do algebra. Ignore my previous comments about "TV during a GCD's time" for the sake of this, because I'm going to talk about HP cycles only.

DP procs every time:

@0HP -- TV -> CS -> filler -> 3HP versus CS -> TV -> CS -> 3HP. Not only does the first require DP to procs twice, but it does less overall damage anyways. You've then kept CS on cooldown for more than three seconds as well, and you generally want to use CS every time it's up unless using a true 3HP TV, Inquisition, etc. You get the idea.

@1HP -- TV -> CS -> 3HP versus CS -> TV -> 3HP. They look equal, right? Well you're right, they are equal.

@2HP -- TV -> 3HP versus CS -> 3HP. At first glance the first seems the obvious choice, right? Well that's deceptive. If you look at the next HP cycle, you'll notice that if you went with the latter and pulled a "double TV", assuming DP procs every time, you'd start the next cycle with 2HP in the bag whereas with the first you'd only end up starting with 1HP.

DP doesn't proc at all:

@0HP -- TV -> CS -> filler -> CS -> filler -> CS versus CS -> TV -> CS -> filler -> CS. Latter is better obviously. The reason why is you'll net more TV's in the time you're DPSing if you cycles look like this. Two TV per 6 abilities versus 2 TV per 7 abilities.

@1HP -- TV -> CS -> filler -> CS versus CS -> TV -> CS. Again, second is better for obvious reasons.

@3HP -- CS -> 3HP versus TV-> CS 3HP. Equal assuming DP does not proc at all, but that may or may not be the case so it's still "iffy".

I'm not going to model specific procs.

That's why our Mastery isn't very good.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-Mastery-Haste

From that thread. Hopefully this clears up the specifics a bit.

[belfpala]

ok I understand the stat weight part of it, but with as hard as TV hits, wouldn't it be the more logical choice to use that ability over a crusader strike if it was consuming a mastery proc?

They went over this on EJ, I think, but that was before the HoL change went live today. The conclusion was that it's better to CS first unless you have 3 HP already. The logic had to do with DP procs and what it does to your rotation. With the change... (assume DP procs every time it can)...

Crusader strike first:
(2 HP) > HoL Proc > CS (3 HP) > TV (3 HP) > TV (1 HP) > CS (2 HP) > Filler

TV first:
(2 HP) > HoL Proc > TV (2 HP) > CS (3 HP) > TV (1 HP) > CS (2 HP) > Filler

Basically it just changes the order of two abilities, whereas before the HoL change the CS-first method allowed for an extra TV. So I think it's pretty much a wash now. Unless your haste is low and you have to wait for the second CS in the TV-first method.

EDIT: That is if I'm understanding the HoL change correctly. I haven't logged on live yet.

[Evilmonkey]

That is if I'm understanding the HoL change correctly. I haven't logged on live yet.

basicly you got the idea. even thought HoL just needs to be removed or changed to do something else as it is a shitty mastery.

ok I understand the stat weight part of it, but with as hard as TV hits, wouldn't it be the more logical choice to use that ability over a crusader strike if it was consuming a mastery proc?

thats because at 85 it doesnt hit that hard. if CS is off cd and your not at 3 HoPo you need to use that. TV is used in a filler spot only when you have 3 HoPo and when Inquisition doesnt need to be refreshed. at 85 our priorites are aprox:
Inquisition
How
Exorcism
TV (3 HoPo)
CS(0-2 HoPo)
Judgment
Holy Wrath
Consecration

[Thumos]

ok I understand the stat weight part of it, but with as hard as TV hits, wouldn't it be the more logical choice to use that ability over a crusader strike if it was consuming a mastery proc?

Yes of course it's a dps increase but it's so small that it makes mastery much worse than any other stat... and by much worse I mean drastically worse... and by drastically worse I mean between 5 and 10 times worse than crit or haste. Mastery is not a free TV, it's a TV minus what you could have used instead.

In addition to this the more mastery you have the more likely you are to get a proc at a bad time when you don't need it, so by the time you do use it, it may be over-written by another mastery proc. So, not only is it terrible to begin with but it gets even more terrible as you get more.

[Tacos]

ok ok, I'm getting it now, thanks guys for the info

[Sorshen]

I hear casters have a reason to complain about things right now. I'd love to burst a mage down, if I only I could reach him...

Wait, casters complaining? What the...
And what the hell, our sub-par mastery is now even weaker?

[Thumos]

Wait, casters complaining? What the...
And what the hell, our sub-par mastery is now even weaker?

No one is even complaining about Ret on Beta, this is a completely unwarranted nerf, they simply have no clue what they are doing, unless of course this is paving the way for Ret PvP buffs that they have not implemented yet.

[Sorshen]

And come to think of it, the new items/tiers are mostly painted with Mastery instead of Crit/Haste. Coupled with secondary stat decay, I bet our dps will be a joke since there's no way we can get these haste/crit levels again (or very soon).

[Fiddlesnarf]

So our shitty Mastery is even shittier now, cool.

[zcks]

Did our ability to cleanse all roots and snares ever start working? Several people on the Beta forums seem to be claiming that it doesn't but no one really replies to their threads with solid answers. Also, did it end up removing physical roots and snares?

It works in the sense that it can only remove 1 snare or root at a time & will make us go OOM in seconds when we have to spam it to keep normal movement speed when fighting anyone with a snare.

This means it is near useless unless it gets changed to remove all snares/roots active when used. They could also stand to make LOTL a constant effect & make our holy power generation more consistent so the spec is not entirely dependent on luck.

[Deleted]

how would having no holy power make him/her dead

Apparently hes not a paladin and thought HP = Health Point as its usually refered too.

[Kelesti]

It works in the sense that it can only remove 1 snare or root at a time & will make us go OOM in seconds when we have to spam it to keep normal movement speed when fighting anyone with a snare.

I agree that something could be done to reduce the cost of Cleanse, make it more attainable.

This means it is near useless unless it gets changed to remove all snares/roots active when used. They could also stand to make LOTL a constant effect & make our holy power generation more consistent so the spec is not entirely dependent on luck.

They could stand to make Long Arm of the Law give Paladins the fastest unrestricted movement speed in the game.

...

Seriously? Really? That is all kinds of bad.

As for Holy Power generation, might as well remove the entire secondary resource then and just go back to cooldowns if you want it normalized. Prot doesn't need it, Holy can use procs for other stuff. But Ret obviously wants every single button to be nothing but TV and have it "normalized, constant, not dictated by RNG" ...

[belfpala]

They could stand to make Long Arm of the Law give Paladins the fastest unrestricted movement speed in the game.

...

Seriously? Really? That is all kinds of bad.

I'm really tired of you.

Try this. Get on your paladin. Duel a friend. Have him/her start 15+ yards away. Judge. He/she runs away from you. You run towards him. You will not have caught him/her by the time LAotL expires. This is a best case scenario when you're being kited. In reality, you'll be dealing with snares and roots at the same time.

Note that a skilled ranged player can run away from you at full speed while using instant cast abilities against you.

If you have an actual argument, give it.

As for Holy Power generation, might as well remove the entire secondary resource then and just go back to cooldowns if you want it normalized. Prot doesn't need it, Holy can use procs for other stuff. But Ret obviously wants every single button to be nothing but TV and have it "normalized, constant, not dictated by RNG" ...

Again, you're a troll. No reputable ret paladin in this sub-forum has said such a thing. Strawman is strawman.

[deneweth]

I'm trying to wrap my head around this one still and the only thing I can come up with is that maybe the devs are assuming the TV will be "free" because we won't be GCD capped at 85. I think there is a little bit of truth behind that at lower gear levels. We'll have a lot less haste % at 85 so we should have more room for these "filler" procs. The problem is that the proc chance is increased by haste but the value of it is reduced by haste.

I would almost be happier if the proc was a chance to reset the cooldown on CS and the CS cooldown didn't scale directly with haste, but rather indirectly through mastery. It would be much easier for them to fix this buy just buffing TV or making the mastery proc TV hit harder.

[belfpala]

I'm trying to wrap my head around this one still and the only thing I can come up with is that maybe the devs are assuming the TV will be "free" because we won't be GCD capped at 85. I think there is a little bit of truth behind that at lower gear levels. We'll have a lot less haste % at 85 so we should have more room for these "filler" procs. The problem is that the proc chance is increased by haste but the value of it is reduced by haste.

I would almost be happier if the proc was a chance to reset the cooldown on CS and the CS cooldown didn't scale directly with haste, but rather indirectly through mastery. It would be much easier for them to fix this buy just buffing TV or making the mastery proc TV hit harder.

You make a good point, and things will change at 85. At least at first. There's a haste threshold where it becomes better to wait for CS to come off cooldown rather than cast a second filler. I don't know the particular number, and I haven't seen any discussion of it on EJ.

But even when we're under that haste threshold, we don't have many spare GCDs unless we get an unlucky string with AoW.

As we gear up, we'll make sure we get to the haste soft cap. This is something that Blizzard wanted to avoid, but they built it into our mechanics. As it stands, every informed ret paladin knows what to do: Get hit/exp capped first; get CS to 3s (with latency modifiers) by reforging crit and mastery second; reforge any remaining mastery to crit third.

Yup.

[Badpaladin]

I'm really tired of you.

Try this. Get on your paladin. Duel a friend. Have him/her start 15+ yards away. Judge. He/she runs away from you. You run towards him. You will not have caught him/her by the time LAotL expires. This is a best case scenario when you're being kited. In reality, you'll be dealing with snares and roots at the same time.

Note that a skilled ranged player can run away from you at full speed while using instant cast abilities against you.

If you have an actual argument, give it.

In the context of a rated BG though, constant 145% run speed would be ridiculous considering we can cleanse off roots/snares and have a lowered duration HoF.

[belfpala]

In the context of a rated BG though, constant 145% run speed would be ridiculous considering we can cleanse off roots/snares and have a lowered duration HoF.

My criticism distinguishes between the idea itself and the idea's critic. I didn't bother going after the idea, because it's not going to happen. Instead, I went after the critic of the idea who quoted something in order to make (yet another) strawman point. Basically this: even if Ret moved as fast as LAotL at all times, we'd still fail.

EDIT. I posted the math quite a while ago. Movement speed buffs are not that great for countering kiting, which is by far the biggest weakness of the ret spec right now. My math was for 1.15x speed in the best possible conditions. In the best possible conditions for LAotL up all the time, we'd still need about a third the length of WSG to catch up to someone (estimating, without redoing the math).

[Fiddlesnarf]

I agree that something could be done to reduce the cost of Cleanse, make it more attainable.

As for Holy Power generation, might as well remove the entire secondary resource then and just go back to cooldowns if you want it normalized. Prot doesn't need it, Holy can use procs for other stuff. But Ret obviously wants every single button to be nothing but TV and have it "normalized, constant, not dictated by RNG" ...

I think the mana cost is fine actually, I think there is a glyph to reduce it, but the mana cost is the only thing keeping us from spamming it. Its already better than what we had before 4.0, fewer trash debuffs.
As for Holy Power, I like it. Blizz just needs to fix all the fucking bugs with it.

OT: New avatar! o.O
hot!

[Evilution]

Feels like the only use of Long arm of the Law in pvp is to flee and get behind a corner/wall quicker so you can heal up, and
aviod some spells if the caster think he can stop and send some nuke with cast-time up in yer butt...
Blizzard welcomes all ret-paladins to World of PVP-Squaredance!