New Nature's Grace Spell

[Khraeme]

So with 4.0.3 out, they changed the Nature's Grace spell a little. They added Regrowth to the arsenal, which is nice. Is it going to be worth the 3 points that you would drop from Naturalist (reduce cast time of nourish/HT by 0.5 secs when 2/2) and maybe something else, depending on spec now, to pick up this talent, which has a 1min CD, although 1min is faily short in reality since its a 20 secs buff?

[Zeppelin535]

I think the talent was included in most 85 builds even before this buff to get to Moonglow, I personally did not know about that change, it makes the talent ALOT more desirable.

[Cerelli]

i'll only pick it depending on how mana efficiency works itself out. If i'm desperate for mana i'll grab it to get to moonglow. If i have a huge surplus then i'll spec into it to get genesis. Otherwise i'll be skipping for other talents.

[Khraeme]

I played some time on beta, and after learning my spells again, i was able to run heroics in lvl 83 gear and not have mana issues that much. A spec i just made, which looks pretty solid for Cata Lvl 85, looks like this http://www.wowhead.com/talent#0hbZcZrszIdcMuouoVc It has inc mana from Furor which will help for mana issuses which i like having a lot. I am hesitant to switch over now to pick up Nature's Grace, bc im not sure whether it's worth it just yet

[Furbolg]

I played some time on beta, and after learning my spells again, i was able to run heroics in lvl 83 gear and not have mana issues that much. A spec i just made, which looks pretty solid for Cata Lvl 85, looks like this http://www.wowhead.com/talent#0hbZcZrszIdcMuouoVc It has inc mana from Furor which will help for mana issuses which i like having a lot. I am hesitant to switch over now to pick up Nature's Grace, bc im not sure whether it's worth it just yet

This is more likely to be the strongest resto build (with 1 spare point to put wherever you like): http://www.wowhead.com/talent#0hfZZMfzIdcbuouoVc

You can't neglect talents that boost your most mana-efficient heals (naturalist and empowered touch). With overhealing being less of an issue in Cataclysm I believe Genesis to be stronger than some of the weaker mana-conserving talents like Malfurion's Gift and Furor. It is also clearly a lot stronger than Blessing of the Grove since it affects all our hots instead of just rejuvenation and provides the same boost per talent point.

More on topic: The new nature's grace doesn't seem all that awesome to me, but it's a FAR better filler for resto than it was before the patch at least.

[Khraeme]

i see your point Furbolg, and im kinda hesitant on this new Malf Gift, bc i dont keep LB up 100%, sometimes i forget. Even though Blessing fo the Grove is only rejuv, its still strong, i would say. The reasons im not too big on Naturalist/ET is because in Beta, nourish isnt healing for more then 8k or w/e....and HT is like 10k mana (kinda a waste). Now, i know with genesis, its inc periodical heals by 6%, so i can see that over blesssing of the grove, but 15% mana is still worth it in my books. Especially in cata where mana might be an issue

[Deleted]

This is more likely to be the strongest resto build (with 1 spare point to put wherever you like): http://www.wowhead.com/talent#0hfZZMfzIdcbuouoVc

You can't neglect talents that boost your most mana-efficient heals (naturalist and empowered touch). With overhealing being less of an issue in Cataclysm I believe Genesis to be stronger than some of the weaker mana-conserving talents like Malfurion's Gift and Furor. It is also clearly a lot stronger than Blessing of the Grove since it affects all our hots instead of just rejuvenation and provides the same boost per talent point.

More on topic: The new nature's grace doesn't seem all that awesome to me, but it's a FAR better filler for resto than it was before the patch at least.

You're going to need Moonglow and probably 2 points in Furor at 85. I would honestly take Malfurions Gift when you first hit 85 too. Genesis will be a talent resto druids can take after we don't need the mana regen talents.

I will be using http://www.wowhead.com/talent#0hbhZMZMfzIdcruozoVc spec at 85 to start with. Possibly taking the point from Nature's Cure and putting it in Gift of the Earthmother when I start raiding and others can dispell magic.

[Furbolg]

I really hope you're wrong, and that we don't have to sacrifice that much throughput in favor of boring mana talents. I haven't healed much after I hit 85 in the beta so I honestly don't know, but I'd like to believe that by not blindly throwing out heals in every direction(wotlk style) we can get to use more of our arsenal without going oom and without letting people die, even with a build focused on throughput.

[Deleted]

There's certainly room for a lot of choice in the Resto tree now. I'm a little annoyed that you have to spend a lot in the Balance Tree for stuff that ideally should be in Resto in the first place.

Differentiating between PVP and PVE is another issue. For PVE raid only, yes it's quite easy to spend all the points, but in PVP some of the other neglected talents may be useful. Yes I know people sneer at Fury of Stormrage but there has to be a point to it otherwise why even bother including it? In PVP Nature's Ward would be somewhat mandatory as well. But that's like 4-6 talent points you'd have to take from a PVE spec to make your spec PVP viable as well.

And yes I know Dual Spec is around but my primary spec is tank, so I only have 1 spare spec to make an all rounder Resto spec.

On Nature's Grace I personally am not a fan of it. I don't like the idea of spending 3 points on a haste buff that only works with one of your spells in your already extensive arsenal.

[Khraeme]

Healing at 85 isnt going to be anywhere near the same as it is now. Your not going to be rejuving the raid/group bc its too much mana for such a little heal. Rejuv will be more a pick-me-up for melee taking some dmg when ur tank is topped off. So in reality, we will still be healing like we do now, casting hots, and waiting a sec or two, but not spamming rejuv on people with 100% hp.

Im looking at the spec that Shadow posted, and the only thing i disagree with, which Furbolg said as well, is Malufrions Gift. I'd rather get the 6% inc heals for rejuv, regrowth, lifebloom, and SM, which is constant, over something with a 4% chance to proc. I personally will probably take Nature's Cure, because in some cases its good to have multiply dispells, especially in a heroic. But if not, that point will go to Furor, to make it 2/3, or possibly moonglow to make that 2/3, depending on how much mana I have. Also, ill be taking Genesis 3/3 for the throughput heals. The only other talents im debating on is Naturalist. If haste comes easy in Cata with lvl 85 gear, and the cast time is already really low, I might pass up on that and take furor. The amount of haste we will have will make up for the 0.5 sec cast lost from talents.

[Deleted]

Problem is you have to spend one talent point in either Blessing or Naturalist anyway in order to get the 10 points needed to proceed to Tier 3, because the mandatory talents only amount to 9. So it will save you max 1 talent point.

[Myrrar]

Heroics, you probably wont need moonglow unless you run with bads that stand in things. You will still have mana problems, and on harder fights you may decide you need it, but on a lot you wont.

What most people will do once they hit 85 is have 2 resto specs. People need to stop thinking they can skip over Nourish talents. That will be your lifeline, don't skip them. You want naturalist.

Moonglow > Furor now since the nurf to revit.
You need to have LB up at all times. Even if it's not on a tank, a pretty solid majority of EJ theorycrafters say that healing + omen is overly worth it. You can have a solid build with two points into gen instead, and still have omen. If you don't need omen, don't take it. But some theorycrafters are saying with the proc rate, if you have it up at all times which you should, it's right with furor/moonglow. I don't know if I agree, but I'll keep looking into it.

The beast healing, no mana problems will probably be: http://wowtal.com/#k=gCNPYX1j4.a8t.druid. with an extra point to do what you want.
The mana spec will probably be: http://wowtal.com/#k=gsuamQ9XB.a8t.druid.

This is at least what I've seen and heard from other hardcore end game raiders.

[Khraeme]

ok, i looked passed the talents needed to advance to next level, in which case id take 2/2 naturalist.

The main reason I looked past the nourish talents is because in cata when i was healing, i didnt find it all that usefull, bc its like 1k mana (or w/e) for a 8k heal, which is quit useless when ur tank has 100k+ hp. I would rather spend the extra mana for a biger heal (HT) which, which wouild still benifit from the talents. My problem was i didnt use then much, i used LB, hots, SM more then other shit.

In terms of ur specs Myrrar, your mana spec, i would expect to see 3/3 furor, and since u have Malf's Gift, why not have Gift of the Earthmother? I feel like the first spec, with 1 point in moonglow seems to be best spec. Even though EJ stated a lot of stuff on the LB proccing Omen, i dont see it being better then reduced mana cost.

Back on topic though, will Nature's Grace will be "mandatory" in cata?

[Cerelli]

moonglow is only useful if you are casting a lot of spells. it will get a lot of mileage for raid healers, not as much for tank healers. a month or two ago i did some testing on the beta to compare the difference between moonglow and furor. And they were pretty much identical in terms of mana gained/saved (with furor being slightly ahead if i remember correctly). With the reduced revitalize chance, i'd imagine that the gap between the two is next to nothing now. They accomplish the same thing through different means.

the biggest reason i'd take furor is that it doesn't require any prerequisite talents to get. Moonglow requires 3 talent points into nature's grace which is something i'm not a fan of TBH. i'd much rather take those talent points and put them into talents into the resto tree that will have a direct impact on my healing.

nourish vs HT:
you are approaching the problem from the wrong point of view. especially in the case of tank healing, you are constantly nourishing him. nourish reduces the duration of your SM cooldown and also generates a lot of living see procs. both will considerably increase the amount of healing you can do. In the runs i did on the beta, living seed was a pretty significant portion of my effective healing done at the end of the fights. Also, tanks are rarely ever in the position where they have to worry about instagibs in the span of a couple seconds (and when they are they need to be using defensive CDs). Most of the time you are just playing maintenance on their health pools and hitting them with a big heal after a big hit comes through to stabilize them again.

[Khraeme]

yea thats very true, but again, topic of interest is Nature's Grace, which got lost after a post or 2.

What points would u take besides nats grace though? and would you still want genesis, bc 6% inc hots is really nice

In the case you dont go Nats Grace at all (which im semi debating atm as well), being 2/2 Nats Majesty, and 3/3 Furor, i dont see other places to put points, except Blessing of the Grove, maybe Fury of Stormrage for grinding

[Cerelli]

http://wowtal.com/#k=RfATLqOL.a8t.druid.

that is the spec i'm going to take at the start of level 85 raiding. The two points left over i'll probably drop into blessing of the grove. i'm going to be filling a tank healing role in my guild so if mana becomes an issue then i'll drop points out of GoTM and move them over to NG/moonglow. GoTM doesn't really support tank healing as much as it does raid healing so I wont be seeing much loss from the 15% heal up front.

If mana starts becoming less of an issue to the point where i feel i'm finishing fights with far too much surplus (something that i'm not expecting to ever happen TBH). then i'll drop furor all together and take points in genesis and GoTM.

[Myrrar]

ok, i looked passed the talents needed to advance to next level, in which case id take 2/2 naturalist.

The main reason I looked past the nourish talents is because in cata when i was healing, i didnt find it all that usefull, bc its like 1k mana (or w/e) for a 8k heal, which is quit useless when ur tank has 100k+ hp. I would rather spend the extra mana for a biger heal (HT) which, which wouild still benifit from the talents. My problem was i didnt use then much, i used LB, hots, SM more then other shit.

In terms of ur specs Myrrar, your mana spec, i would expect to see 3/3 furor, and since u have Malf's Gift, why not have Gift of the Earthmother? I feel like the first spec, with 1 point in moonglow seems to be best spec. Even though EJ stated a lot of stuff on the LB proccing Omen, i dont see it being better then reduced mana cost.

Back on topic though, will Nature's Grace will be "mandatory" in cata?

Gotem has nothing to do with Malf gift. It's the ending tick of LB, not the ticks in between, and you should be rolling it. Not letting it bloom and reapplying. 2/3 Furor is fine when you look at what you would have to drop to get 3/3.

The numbers for Furor vs Moonglow is big now, a lot more so than the old difference between furor>moonglow. That's why, if you are having unbelievable mana problems you will want to go ahead and grab NG and get moonglow.
If you can get away with furor alone, Cer is right, you want to take that instead so you don't have to waste the NG points.

NG will not be anywhere near mandatory. Most people wont take it, and will only take it if
a) they NEED moonglow
b) they have no mana problems at all

I will have Cers exact spec unless I see I really need more mana.

[Deleted]

Personally I'm not a fan of Nature's Grace. I think the haste on gear will be sufficient and it's a 3 point talent which is a heavy sink for something that only works off one spell that isn't used as much as others. In my specs whether it's fully raiding or a PVE/PVP mixed spec, I will only spend 2 points in Balance, and that will be on getting +4% crit chance.

http://wowtal.com/#k=qsursiVh.a8t.druid.

I'm thinking this for my 85 mixed Resto PVE / PVP spec. The flexibility comes in GotEM and Furor. I agree that Lifebloom should ideally not be allowed to expire, at least not so often that you need to boost the healing on it. Having more maxium mana is just as good as having cheaper spells. And yes I've taken Fury, even in PVP I'm sure you'll get tempted to spam Wrath in Tree Form on occasion. :-)

[Khraeme]

What i meant by Gotem and Malfs Gift, was the lifebloom thing. But now that i read it, i stand corrected. Either way, it's still good to have, just in case you let it drop (out of range, healing some1 else...etc). I guess I will most likely settle with the spec Cerelli posted, seeing that it has the most upfront healing and no procs/gotta wait kinda stuff in it. For right now, Im settling down with that spec, minus the crit, but 2/3 in furor and ill fill in as i lvl up.

[Myrrar]

GotEM is still pretty good. If you can time up the LB bloom with a lot of dmg it's awesome, and the initial RJ hit is still good. I'll be trying to get this talent, just will have to skip it if I have mana problems.