Processor, Motherboard, and Graphics card (Pick 2!) Please help =)

[Zaios]

Hello all, I've been thinking about doing an upgrade and I've got about $550 to spend.
Reason for this upgrade: Attempting to get higher framerates in 25 man raids during combat.. I know some people will post their out of combat frames. No thanks; I currently get about 22-27 fps in combat running the following on my computer (btw if there is anything wrong with this setup, please let me know.)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814130433 (Current Graphics card)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813131367 (Current Mother board)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819103471 (Current Processor)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820231209 (Also current ram, I may need to upgrade that too)

All right, given those specs... here are the upgrades that I can understand and read as an incompetent computer user. (These are two parts that I'm almost positive I'd want):

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-849-_-Product (I believe this is the best Phenom 6 core processor available) - I've heard things about it being on par with the 1000$ intel i7. (I am not trying to start a flame war w/ intel vs. amd); however, on that note, has it been proven that WoW runs better with intel? That is just something I've heard - don't flame unless you have proof please.

Also, I'm looking at upgrading to an ATI 5700 graphics card series. I cannot post a link for this as I am incompetent with the brands on newegg, too. =)

Just to clarify information I know/what I have gathered: With talking to a computer professional I know, he's mentioned the possibility that my issue could very well be my graphics card; he has a roomate who plays WoW using DDR3 ram along with an AMD phenom 6 core and an ATI 5700 series.
Now I know/heard that WoW is much more processor dependent.. part of why I am creating this thread.

Last thing, in talking to that computer guy, he mentioned the idea of "parts working better with other parts." in other words, my DDR2 ram will work with the new processor I have in mind, but will not be as optimal as DDR3, and the main concern with this idea is the processor not getting "optimal performance" with my current motherboard.

Thanks in advance to anyone who posts; your advice will be greatly appreciated on this Thanksgiving morning. Happy gobble gobble, everyone!

Edit: The "Pick 2" part of this thread would be true if I would need to upgrade the motherboard; however, if I don't.. that answers the question. Also, please give your opinions based on what would be good upgrades according to the types of parts I am researching, don't take money too much into account. (I don't want to get a crappy computer so I'll take all advice into consideration when deciding what I really want to do since I usually spend more than I want to) hehe. Thanks again!

[Sentential]

Ok so we have an nVidia GTX 260 and a Phenom II Black Ed with DDR2. First, your board will take a Thuban based CPU as yours is M4N based line. Asus should have a BIOS update for it. So right out of the gate I would reccomend a Phenom II X6 based processor; either the cheapest one you can get or the 1075T or 1090T Black Ed respectively like what your roomate has.

Here's the next thing to keep in mind, Thuban has a high tendency to hit 4ghz with moderate air cooling (like mine). So if you get a black edition you can use either the BIOS or a program like PhenomMsrTweaker to adjust your cool and quiet settings so that you hit that mark. Now if you have no interest in overclocking then get the cheapest one you can find.

Personally I think you ought to look at overclocking as it will better to help you understand how your PC really works. There are many sites out there and all of them have a wonderful communities associated with them so I wont name drop. Second you have a GTX260, ironically enough in DX10 and DX9 mode it is on par with most GTX460s 450s ie inbetween. So unless you are purchasing a GTX470, 480, 570, 580 you will see zero; Z-E-R-O difference in framerate.

So my overall assessment would be get a Thuban based X6, or a Zosman X4 and attempt to unlock it; and go from there. Personally I would reccomend a black ed Thuban for the purposes of overclocking but thats just me. Also dont buy the hype; DDR3 is useless below 1800mhz, I run this game juuuuuust fine on my 1066 DDR2.

EDIT:

The comments about intel running better in this game is infact correct but that is because overall they have better IPC and they run better in "all" games not just this one. However the x6s are close enough to make it count. At this point I fail to see a reason why you would want to migrate to i7 over an x6. Especially given Zambezi is just around the corner; Sandy Bridge too. If you were looking at a Sandy Bridge i7 like the 2600K that would be one thing but untill that is out I would hold off on moving to a new platform and stick with what you have.

EDIT #2:

The HD5770 is on par with your current chip for all intensive purposes, you would be wanting to look at a HD6870 or HD6970 to see any benefit

EDIT #3:

My Pick two would be:

Processor: 1090T BE (now)
GPU: Wait for HD6970 / GTX570 later next month

[Zaios]

Ok, so I'm just a little confused on what you said there about the graphics card, Sentential. What I got from your comment on the ATI card being on par with my nvidia is that, if that is true, then a processor upgrade will theoretically increase my framerate which would be comparable to my friend's?

P.S. I remember the computer guy I was talking to mentioning something about the parts I have being very close to what I want; however, he did mention how AMD bought ATI or ATI bought AMD.. something to that effect. Keeping that in mind, he mentioned how AMD would run better with something made by the same company; ie, an AMD processor would not run as well with an nvidia graphics card which is what I'm running.

Btw thanks for the very insightful reply. =) It was pretty dumbed down for me which is what I need, hehe.

Edit: Also, with your info, Sentential, does that mean I'm good to go with my processor and that I'd be getting max performance out of it if I bought the AMD phenom II 6 core 1090T edition? That was also a concern when talking to the computer guy; he mentioned that my motherboard may be good but it may not get the optimal performance without grabbing a new one.

[Sentential]

Ok, so I'm just a little confused on what you said there about the graphics card, Sentential. What I got from your comment on the ATI card being on par with my nvidia is that, if that is true, then a processor upgrade will theoretically increase my framerate which would be comparable to my friend's?

P.S. I remember the computer guy I was talking to mentioning something about the parts I have being very close to what I want; however, he did mention how AMD bought ATI or ATI bought AMD.. something to that effect. Keeping that in mind, he mentioned how AMD would run better with something made by the same company; ie, an AMD processor would not run as well with an nvidia graphics card which is what I'm running.

Btw thanks for the very insightful reply. =) It was pretty dumbed down for me which is what I need, hehe.

Edit: Also, with your info, Sentential, does that mean I'm good to go with my processor and that I'd be getting max performance out of it if I bought the AMD phenom II 6 core 1090T edition? That was also a concern when talking to the computer guy; he mentioned that my motherboard may be good but it may not get the optimal performance without grabbing a new one.

What you said from before was that your friend had a HD5700 series card; little did you know your current card the GTX260 is within spitting distance to the HD5770 so your card and his have roughly the same peformance; the only difference is the processor. Also you can change the processor out independantly of the graphics card; wait it out and see how that goes and move from there. I say move from there because I do not know you well enough to know what your "tolerance" for framerate is. For a lot of people the processor upgrade is enough; for me it would take both.

Also yes AMD bought ATi so they are one in the same, as far as the same vendor same spec to run well thats really not the case at all. Your current motherboard is nVidia based and therefor for the sake of consistancy I would reccomend an nVidia card for the purposes of SLI but you dont have to do so; especially since this game peforms worse with multiple graphics cards (my personal experience included). So purchasing an ATi based card will be a non-issue. This is especially true since nVidia does not make chipsets anymore and therefor to run AMD you would have to buy an ATi board much like on current Intel platforms.

As far as your motherboard is concerned you're kinda cornered right now; we are within 90 days of a complete overhaul of processors from Intel and AMD alike. If you buy anything now its DOA come January when Sandy Bridge arrives and then later in March/April when Zambezi arrives. So from that perspective your best bet is to salvage what you have and cut your losses. You're damned if you do and damned if you dont.

If you wait you have to suffer through the most critical part of the expansion with a slug for a computer; or spend money to fix that only to have to do it all over again in less than a year to stay current.

What you have right now is this:
You have a motherboard that will take a processor that is highly over-clockable and on par with the system you wanted to make
You have an *OK* graphics card which by all consideration is still well within the "mainstream" catagory
You have RAM that will see little to no benefit if replaced.

Also you're fine everyone starts from somewhere; its not hard or mystifying and anyone who sez such is a liar lol. Its real simple as far as PC parts are concerned. The manufactureres use a tick-tock type of plan. You have a tick which is a new product line, new generation launch followed by within about 2.5 years a refresh which is the same as the tick just cheaper and less power consuming with *slightly* better clocks; then the cycle repeats.

Right now we are in the tock phase headed to a tick phase in Q1 2011. So right now is the *absolute* WORST time to buy ANY pc parts. Its expensive because no one is stocking parts and will be outright replaced very soon; in this case in January. So the time to buy is not now; it was about 6 months to a year ago. However if you wait until the new year and the tick chips arrive THAT is the time to buy.

To give you an idea, the HD5850 and HD5870 launched over a year ago with the Phenom II 1090T and is still in many cases top dog in gaming. So had you purchased a setup like that then you would have made out like a bandit as your current hardware is still considered high end. So there are a lot of folks much like myself who are waiting for Sandy Bridge or in my case Zambezi to launch before spending a dime.

Graphics card purchases right now are more or less a safe bet as long as you are getting the refreshes, ie the tock phase of their release. Specifically the upcoming HD6970, HD6950, HD6990 and their Nvidia GTX500 equivalents. At this point it doesnt appear the 32nm or 28nm nodes will be available anytime soon next year and therefor I would expect to not see any major changes in performance till about the back to school period in early July which is likely when I will replace my GTX470.

[scouser]

my set up (stay away from shit nvidia)

Antec 1200 - Gaming Case with 200mm Top Fan - No PSU

Antec TruePower New 850W Modular PSU - 80plus Bronze and SLI Certified 3x SATA

Kingston 64GB SSDNow V SSD 2.5" SATA-II Read = 200MB/sec, Write = 110MB/sec x2

Western Digital WD10EARS 1TB Hard Drive SATAII 5400rpm 64MB Cache - OEM Caviar Green

ASUS P6T SE iX58 Socket 1366 8 Channel Audio ATX Motherboard

Sapphire HD 5970 2GB GDDR5 (best card on the market and better than any crossfire set up you could make)

Corsair 12GB (6x2GB) DDR3 2000MHz XMS3 Triple Channel i7 Memory Kit CL8 1.65V x2

Intel Core i7 950 3.06GHz Socket 1366 8MB Cache Retail Boxed Processor

Coolermaster V8 Socket 1156, 1366, 775, AM2+, AM2, 940 Processor Cooler (best cpu cooler ive ever had )

Creative X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Pro 7.1 Soundcard - PCI-Express

[Deleted]

You are in a good position to actually wait for the new tech to actually come out as i see nothing wrong with your current set-up but afaik you should be getting better in combat frame rates than that with your rig. I take it you are playing at 1080p so would suggest maybe lowering shadows and sunshafts a little to eek out a little more fps and wait it out and maybe by the time the new stuff comes in you will have enough saved up for a great new set-up.

[Zaios]

Sentential, what you're saying right now is that between January and six months later, there will be better parts being released and with that in mind... the parts I'm currently looking at will undoubtedly drop in price as you said, now what about the newer parts? What do you estimate those to cost in pricing? More or less than what I'm currently looking to spend to get better upgrades than what I'd get if I were to order parts now? I also know there is a consistency for companies to release brand new products that are "slightly better" than the older versions, so I'm not sure if it'd be so great to wait things out and then pay more money for those parts.

Also, I was a little confused on the ATI card with the AMD processor. You meant that in order to run an ATI video card I would absolutely have to change my motherboard if I were running an ATI card?

Thanks again for such great posts!

[Asera]

So right out of the gate I would reccomend a Phenom II X6 based processor

Why? An X4 965BE will offer better performance in WoW for less money.

[Bluedevil21]

EDIT #3:

My Pick two would be:

Processor: 1090T BE (now)
GPU: Wait for HD6970 / GTX570 later next month

Couldn't have put it better, but also I second looking into the x4 965BE & go with a either a GTX460 or 5-series if going Nvidia, the 470/480 produce crazy amounts of heat & fan noise will be an issue for most.

[deevicoos]

my set up (stay away from shit nvidia)

1) NO, the 460gtx is probably an ideal purchase for the OP here. It's value for money and decent performance. It's all about the price bracket and the time in the cycle as to which is best, ie it varies from week to week.
2) NO. My machine pisses on yours but your post is basically spam the guy has a $550 budget. He won't be able to buy the processor or the GPU you have as they're both more.

A 6 core processor is a waste of money for a gamer with no limits. I wouldn't replace that phenom unless you can get something with a bigger cache and higher clock. More cores does NOT MEAN more performance unless you have 1 or 2 to start with. Infact while wow is processor heavy if your settings are maxed maybe just blow it all on a new gpu and try to overclock a couple of hundred mhz out of the processor? To be honest I'm not sure a slightly faster iteration of your current processor is needed. Of course if you're terrified of overclocking even 10% out of it, just buy the faster processor and a GTX460. If not you can buy a 480 and get bitching performance on all games not just wow.

[Zaios]

1) NO, the 460gtx is probably an ideal purchase for the OP here. It's value for money and decent performance. It's all about the price bracket and the time in the cycle as to which is best, ie it varies from week to week.
2) NO. My machine pisses on yours but your post is basically spam the guy has a $550 budget. He won't be able to buy the processor or the GPU you have as they're both more.

A 6 core processor is a waste of money for a gamer with no limits. I wouldn't replace that phenom unless you can get something with a bigger cache and higher clock. More cores does NOT MEAN more performance unless you have 1 or 2 to start with. Infact while wow is processor heavy if your settings are maxed maybe just blow it all on a new gpu and try to overclock a couple of hundred mhz out of the processor? To be honest I'm not sure a slightly faster iteration of your current processor is needed. Of course if you're terrified of overclocking even 10% out of it, just buy the faster processor and a GTX460. If not you can buy a 480 and get bitching performance on all games not just wow.

Just trying to be sure you guys are keeping in mind that I'm trying to do this upgrade based on 25 man raid settings (in combat) in order to max out fps. Right now as it is, I get great performance when nobody is around in any area; however, add 10 or more people on my screen and watch that great performance become comparable to my 22-27 fps in raid combat. I guess another core question here would be, given the specs my computer has, which would upgrades would yield the best performance increase in a raid environment? Please feel free to post reasonably priced upgrades; I'm pretty much looking for upgrades that would be 3rd or 2nd best.. I realize that the top of the line whatever will run 75%-100% more than the 2nd best, which is where the budget problem comes in.

Thanks all!

[Asera]

A 6 core processor is a waste of money for a gamer with no limits. I wouldn't replace that phenom unless you can get something with a bigger cache and higher clock. More cores does NOT MEAN more performance unless you have 1 or 2 to start with. Infact while wow is processor heavy if your settings are maxed maybe just blow it all on a new gpu and try to overclock a couple of hundred mhz out of the processor? To be honest I'm not sure a slightly faster iteration of your current processor is needed. Of course if you're terrified of overclocking even 10% out of it, just buy the faster processor and a GTX460. If not you can buy a 480 and get bitching performance on all games not just wow.

For some reason I thought OP was using one of the older Phenoms.

I agree, if he has a 940BE there isn't any point in upgrading the CPU. It's a Deneb core, its unlocked, it will go to 3.4ghz (965 speed) easily on its stock fan.

I'm trying to do this upgrade based on 25 man raid settings (in combat) in order to max out fps.

Currently no computer can do a full 60fps in a 25 man raid environment at maximum graphics settings. Not even 6 core i7 extreme editions. It's a limitation of the games engine itself.

[Sentential]

Sentential, what you're saying right now is that between January and six months later, there will be better parts being released and with that in mind... the parts I'm currently looking at will undoubtedly drop in price as you said, now what about the newer parts? What do you estimate those to cost in pricing? More or less than what I'm currently looking to spend to get better upgrades than what I'd get if I were to order parts now? I also know there is a consistency for companies to release brand new products that are "slightly better" than the older versions, so I'm not sure if it'd be so great to wait things out and then pay more money for those parts.

Also, I was a little confused on the ATI card with the AMD processor. You meant that in order to run an ATI video card I would absolutely have to change my motherboard if I were running an ATI card?

Thanks again for such great posts!

Sure sorry for the confusion let me clarify. Your motherboard supports all graphics cards but only nVidia in a multi-GPU enviroment; aka SLI. This game sees no benefit and infact is worse in SLI mode. So for you it wouldnt matter what you purchase. As for the parts ill keep it straight to the point. People going for "cheaper" stuff end up paying for it in the end. What you need to understand is that there is a price segment for everything.

PCs are not like cars, the goal is to keep it as long as possible as opposed to as cheap as possible. Cheap in the PC world means out-dated / discarded. A PC that is irravelnt in 4 months on the cheap is worthless when for a slight difference have something that is relevant for atleast 2 years. The way you want to look at these parts is decide this; do you want something cheap or something thats going to last. That really decides what phase you buy in.

I personally buy in the tick phase of PC releases; the products are better designed and have more redundancy. There is a *slight* premium in doing so but again; there is a price segment for everything. The advantage to this is my equipment lasts normally 2 to 2.5 years before it goes from high-end to mainstream. Which means that I replace my PC every 3 years; but of those 3 years I have incredible usage out of it because I buy wisely not cheaply. Again, right now in my opinion is not the time to buy. Right now is the time to make do and survive and wait until the much better stuff is released in Q1.

The ideal wow setup until the next expansion will be:

For Intel:
i7 2600k (Sandy Bridge) @ 5ghz
8-16GB of DDR3
HD6970 or GTX 570

For AMD
Zambezi (8 core Bulldozer CPU)
8-16GB of DDR3
HD6970 or GTX 570

I personally am waiting for Dozer, the first of which is code named Zambezi and should be out before april. So what I did in the meantime was buy a bunch of cheap DDR2 (8gb worth) and a cheapie 1090T about 9 months ago @ $300 and plan on keeping it until Zambezi to which I will promply move to 16-32GB of DDR3 depending on what densities are available by that point.

For those looking at Intel there is zero doubt that until Westemere EX (ie the Xeon quad-channel chip) that the i7 2600K is going to be the go to chip as it is the direct replacement to the i7 860. I havent seen any hard numbers for Dozer yet so it could very well be that I will go with either SB or Westemere I havent decided honestly. I know what Sandy Bridge is capable of; ie 10-20% faster than current i7s and overclocks to 4.5-5.5ghz on good air cooling. What I end up going with largely depends on how Zambezi is.

That's my honest opinion; get something cheap and wade it out because your current graphics card is fine, unless you are going with a heavy hitter ie the 580 or HD6970 or similar I think you will be dissapointed with the results. So Id say start with the processor and see how that shakes out before you drop more money.

1) NO, the 460gtx is probably an ideal purchase for the OP here. It's value for money and decent performance. It's all about the price bracket and the time in the cycle as to which is best, ie it varies from week to week.
2) NO. My machine pisses on yours but your post is basically spam the guy has a $550 budget. He won't be able to buy the processor or the GPU you have as they're both more.

A 6 core processor is a waste of money for a gamer with no limits. I wouldn't replace that phenom unless you can get something with a bigger cache and higher clock. More cores does NOT MEAN more performance unless you have 1 or 2 to start with. Infact while wow is processor heavy if your settings are maxed maybe just blow it all on a new gpu and try to overclock a couple of hundred mhz out of the processor? To be honest I'm not sure a slightly faster iteration of your current processor is needed. Of course if you're terrified of overclocking even 10% out of it, just buy the faster processor and a GTX460. If not you can buy a 480 and get bitching performance on all games not just wow.

I disagree with the Thuban being a waste. First it has a far greater cache available to it and the IPC of each core is much closer to the i7s than is the x4 chips. Right now realistically speaking the X4s by AMD are closer to i3 peformance than the i5s. By that right most people will be CPU bound with a Phenom II X4 as odd as that sounds. Thuban is well worth purchasing; even if he does not overclock the 1090T turbo mode will auto adjust his default clock speed to 3.6ghz without him touching anything.

[Zaios]

That's my honest opinion; get something cheap and wade it out because your current graphics card is fine, unless you are going with a heavy hitter ie the 580 or HD6970 or similar I think you will be dissapointed with the results. So Id say start with the processor and see how that shakes out before you drop more money.

Ok, so just to clarify on what you said before with the new stuff coming out in jan and march/april: new graphics cards are coming out then, new processors, or both? You're saying to start my upgrading with the processor (now)? Or to wait it out for the coming months? I certainly have absolutely no problem saving a little bit of extra cash to go for the better stuff because I completely agree with you that buying anything cheaply will come around sooner or later to bite you in the @ss =).

I apologize for constantly bugging you all morning, Sent, but what you're saying is making lots of sense to me. =)

[Cilraaz]

The ideal wow setup until the next expansion will be:

For Intel:
i7 2600k (Sandy Bridge) @ 5ghz
8-16GB of DDR3
HD6970 or GTX 570

For AMD
Zambezi (8 core Bulldozer CPU)
8-16GB of DDR3
HD6970 or GTX 570

You like to have hardware sitting idle, don't you? Neither an 8-core CPU, nor 8-16GB RAM will be useful in a gaming system. With an 8-core CPU, you will have half of those cores sitting idle. With 8-16GB RAM, you'll have 50-75% of it idle. I could be wrong, but I don't see any games within a current build's lifetime using 6- or 8-core CPUs or 8-16GB RAM.

[Asera]

PCs are not like cars, the goal is to keep it as long as possible as opposed to as cheap as possible.

Uh, you can easily do both.

I disagree with the Thuban being a waste. First it has a far greater cache available to it and the IPC of each core is much closer to the i7s than is the x4 chips. Right now realistically speaking the X4s by AMD are closer to i3 peformance than the i5s. By that right most people will be CPU bound with a Phenom II X4 as odd as that sounds. Thuban is well worth purchasing; even if he does not overclock the 1090T turbo mode will auto adjust his default clock speed to 3.6ghz without him touching anything.

I would hardly call a Thuban CPU cheap by any stretch of the imagination. At their price point ($280CAD for the 1090T), you would be better off with an i5 760.

And the cache difference? There isn't any. Thuban and Deneb both have the same 6MB L3 cache, the same 512kb L2 per core, and the same 64+64kb L1 per core.