Feral vs. Rogue in PVP - a 20 points side by side comparison

[Tangster]

Nope, I just tried it on a target dummy and I can confirm that shifting out of cat reduces the amount of damage rake does. I haven't tried with rip but I don't see why it would behave differently.
It's very counter intuitive that it works that way, but it does work that way. That's why now I prefer to avoid going into bear unless really necessary and use SI/Barkskin/PS heals or kiting my enemy to survive in cat form.

Interesting, i wonder if this only affects bleeds or affects other things like Dots/Hots ticking for less when your trinket drops off, or if its specific to ferals because of our mastery. To an extent i understand the logic behind it, so we can't keep tossing up bleeds and then sit in bear form, reapply and repeat.

Edit: after reading aether's post below it makes more sense to me, and im sure it has more to do with Blizz reworking the way dots/hots tick then my above guess. Seeing as how anyone who tossing up bleeds and swaps to bear form is probably doing it wrong :P

Edit 2: OT: didnt mean to hijack this threat, im glad to see druids getting all these new tools! Can't wait do try 2s with my rogue buddy now as feral xD

[AetherMcLoud]

AFAIK:

Every dot now recalculates all your buffs (which I suppose includes mastery) and updates itself each and every tick. You only have to redot if debuffs on the target change (mangle for example).

[Jackmoves]

Current content every one of my geared characters laughs at rogues 1v1 now, they're only dangerous with others, damage throughput is terrible.

Rogues have control and nothing else. You compare a mix of rogue specs instead of a solid breakdown.
The new talent trees were a big nerf to rogues and losing strength of old mutilate prep build. New sub has the strength for full control but not enough energy regen to output enough damage press at the same time. Combat has token gimmicks.

I disagree with that, pool energy for sdance and you can pump out some massive damage. I agree that sustained damage in sub spec is a bit mediocre though, but that also brings some depth to the play style imo as you need to set up your burst moment instead of just relentlessly grinding stuff down.

Sub will be good in cata, Mutilate will work well in 2v2 at least imo, IF you play with a dispeller. Muti is mobility becomes a problem when they got no one to dispell them, kind of like warriors(but warriors are quite a bit better off then muti).

[sicness]

I don't care how good your feral druid is they'll never be able to lock down a healer like a rogue can, especially now as sub spec. That in my book makes the rogue infinitely better in rated BGs specifically.

---------- Post added 2010-12-01 at 12:13 PM ----------

I disagree with that, pool energy for sdance and you can pump out some massive damage. I agree that sustained damage in sub spec is a bit mediocre though, but that also brings some depth to the play style imo as you need to set up your burst moment instead of just relentlessly grinding stuff down.

Sub will be good in cata, Mutilate will work well in 2v2 at least imo, IF you play with a dispeller. Muti is mobility becomes a problem when they got no one to dispell them, kind of like warriors(but warriors are quite a bit better off then muti).

Agreed, people overlook the fact that sub spec is incredibly more mobile than the other specs so with that you lose sustained damage. The burst damage is still there and only on a 1 minute cool down compared to the other specs which are 2 to 3 minutes.

[Nudle]

Not every rogue has shadowstep, it`s subtlety only. Plus i can`t get out other rogues as one, using a shout (see bearform).
Rogues can`t switch to tanking with evasion as good as a druid can swap to bear form, pop barkskin or survival instincts which differs alot from evasion (50% reduced damage-any kind)and frenzied regeneration, do last stand or w/e it`s called,and just increase his hp with thousands.

...just sayin...

[Deleted]

Interesting, i wonder if this only affects bleeds or affects other things like Dots/Hots ticking for less when your trinket drops off, or if its specific to ferals because of our mastery. To an extent i understand the logic behind it, so we can't keep tossing up bleeds and then sit in bear form, reapply and repeat.

Edit: after reading aether's post below it makes more sense to me, and im sure it has more to do with Blizz reworking the way dots/hots tick then my above guess. Seeing as how anyone who tossing up bleeds and swaps to bear form is probably doing it wrong :P

It's 100% verified and certain that bleeds don't benefit from mastery if you're not in cat form. This includes bear form, caster form or dead. Just notice how once you die your bleeds start ticking for less on the enemy. And after all, if you could switch to bear and benefit from both your cat mastery and bear mastery would be overpowered.

[Williee]

I never played a rogue so i dont know if hte rogue facts are correct or not but some of the feral ones are a bit off.
We can get disarmed :[
You jus dont notice it cuz our forms dont show weapons but if u disarm a feral when DBW is procced, you will notice he is punching you vs swinging a weapon.
Although, not as great of a dps lost for a feral vs every other melee, we are affected by disarms now since weapon dps = shred and mangle dmg.

[Crisu]

According to:
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=1784

and

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=5215

And quoting:
"It appears that druids prowl is now better than a rogues stealth. Saw a few posts on the wow forums to indicate this to be true.

Prowl=Apply Aura: Stealth
Value: 50

Stealth=Apply Aura: Stealth
Value: 40

Feral Instinct=Apply Aura: Stealth
Value: 15"

the point one in your comparison may be false (thou I'm not sure).

[Deleted]

I never played a rogue so i dont know if hte rogue facts are correct or not but some of the feral ones are a bit off.
We can get disarmed :[
You jus dont notice it cuz our forms dont show weapons but if u disarm a feral when DBW is procced, you will notice he is punching you vs swinging a weapon.
Although, not as great of a dps lost for a feral vs every other melee, we are affected by disarms now since weapon dps = shred and mangle dmg.

Disarms don't remove weapon stats, so you don't lose the agility or DPS from your weapon. Disarm makes you only being unable to use abilities which require a melee weapon. For feral such don't exist. Correct me if i'm wrong, but I'm 99% sure ferals are not affected by disarms.

---------- Post added 2010-12-01 at 05:43 PM ----------

According to:


And quoting:
"It appears that druids prowl is now better than a rogues stealth. Saw a few posts on the wow forums to indicate this to be true.

Prowl=Apply Aura: Stealth
Value: 50

Stealth=Apply Aura: Stealth
Value: 40

Feral Instinct=Apply Aura: Stealth
Value: 15"

the point one in your comparison may be false (thou I'm not sure).

Well, if it's not the same, then it's a bug and will be fixed. Blizzard have clearly stated that they want rogues and ferals with the improved stealth and resto, balance with the weak stealth.
I'll check the numbers though, looks interesting.

[Jackmoves]

Disarms don't remove weapon stats, so you don't lose the agility or DPS from your weapon. Disarm makes you only being unable to use abilities which require a melee weapon. For feral such don't exist. Correct me if i'm wrong, but I'm 99% sure ferals are not affected by disarms.

---------- Post added 2010-12-01 at 05:43 PM ----------



Well, if it's not the same, then it's a bug and will be fixed. Blizzard have clearly stated that they want rogues and ferals with the improved stealth and resto, balance with the weak stealth.
I'll check the numbers though, looks interesting.

It's been like that(stealth) since 4.0.1.
It's also been pointed out by rogues several times and there was a blue post from GC on the matter of rogues vanish and stealth where all he said was the only bug they had noticed on "their end" was pets following rogues after restealthing/vanish. :/

[Crisu]

I did some test on my rogue with my guild's feral and it really appears that feral Prowl is a little better than rogue Stealth (still the difference is really low).
Anyway it's kinda weird that the "sneaky guy" sneaks less effective than the "fluffy one"

[Leinie]

Disarms don't remove weapon stats, so you don't lose the agility or DPS from your weapon. Disarm makes you only being unable to use abilities which require a melee weapon. For feral such don't exist. Correct me if i'm wrong, but I'm 99% sure ferals are not affected by disarms.

I just tested this in a couple duels. Our melee direct damage attacks (auto attack, Mangle, Shred, etc) are affected by base weapon DPS now, and thus are impacted by disarm by way of reducing their damage. We retain our stats, like you said, so being disarmed will not affect our bleeds' damage.

Does this mean people will start to disarm druids? Unlikely, given that so much of our damage is from bleeds now and we retain all of our abilities while disarmed. At worse, it would be the difference between a 20K FB and a 15K FB. Not exactly game changing.

[Deleted]

I did some test on my rogue with my guild's feral and it really appears that feral Prowl is a little better than rogue Stealth (still the difference is really low).
Anyway it's kinda weird that the "sneaky guy" sneaks less effective than the "fluffy one"

Thank you, I will update the initial post with this info.

---------- Post added 2010-12-01 at 06:31 PM ----------

I just tested this in a couple duels. Our melee direct damage attacks (auto attack, Mangle, Shred, etc) are affected by base weapon DPS now, and thus are impacted by disarm by way of reducing their damage. We retain our stats, like you said, so being disarmed will not affect our bleeds' damage.

Does this mean people will start to disarm druids? Unlikely, given that so much of our damage is from bleeds now and we retain all of our abilities while disarmed. At worse, it would be the difference between a 20K FB and a 15K FB. Not exactly game changing.

Thank you too, I will update my first post with this.

[utopianh]

It's 100% verified and certain that bleeds don't benefit from mastery if you're not in cat form. This includes bear form, caster form or dead. Just notice how once you die your bleeds start ticking for less on the enemy. And after all, if you could switch to bear and benefit from both your cat mastery and bear mastery would be overpowered.

Also we lose 10% AP when we shift out of cat form, which also is updated and further reduces our bleed damage.

[sicness]

Anyone trying to confirm that druids have a higher stealth level than rogues need to confirm that they aren't using night elves as an example before posting.

[AetherMcLoud]

AFAIK there is no nightelf +stealth racial anymore.

[Saverem]

Rogue wins in the coolness factor - Shadowy Assassin/swashbuckler/stalker type character that is quick on their feet and able to dodge attacks or deflect them with their poisoned blades.

Druids win the usefulness factor - They can be tanks healers and DPSers when needed, they also have better utility such as Innervate, MoTW, and Rebirth.

I'd say go Rogue for lore or Druid if you want to get into a LFD fast.

[rany]

two complete different play styles. its like comparing sp to warlocks because they both have dots.

[etchasketch]

22. Bleeds- FER- HOLYSHIT!!!11

[Deleted]

I don't care how good your feral druid is they'll never be able to lock down a healer like a rogue can, especially now as sub spec. That in my book makes the rogue infinitely better in rated BGs specifically.

1) Pounce - 4sec stun
2) Maim(5cp) - 5sec stun
3) Cyclone x2 - 6 and 4sec not sure about the second cyclone if it is 4 or 3sec.
4) Bash(bear) - 5sec stun