Should WoW have taken the D&D approach to monster power?

[Deleted]

Let me qualify this statement first. In Dungeons & Dragons the race , class or a combination of both would determine the difficulty of the adversary. You would never find, for instance, level 1 players fighting Liches, Drow, Mindflayers and other powerful creatures. This is simply because these creatures are fierce adversaries and only experienced adventurers can take them down.

Vanilla WoW used to have a sense of that, I think. Abominations were powerful units in WC3, and the first two aboms that Alliance players encountered in classic WoW were elites, one in Duskwood and one in Andorhal. Attempting to solo them was suicide - attempting to take them down with a group that wasn't appropriate level was also difficult.

Skip ahead to Cata and we see that Blizzard have creatures with a huge range in levels. Trolls encounter a Naga Sea Witch at level 5ish, Forsaken kill many Alliance 7th Legion troopers (the elite of the Alliance army) etc.

Now, maybe I'm too old school, but I would think that a certain type of creature, for example Doom Guards, should never appear at low levels. I remember playing Baldur's Gate 2 that seeing a Beholder or Mindflayer was a crap-your-pants experience - just looking at the model you knew you're in for a rough ride.

I know that they are completely different types of game, and that Blizz do it for variety and excitement at low levels, but I was just wondering if anyone shared my views that certain monsters should have levels indicative of their power in lore.

[hordeorcrogue]

/SIGN

I couldn't agree with you more. I played WC3 the other night for some nostalgia and the same thing popped into my head.

[Jademist]

So at level 1-10 all we fight are scorpions and pigs?

That's kinda dull if you ask me.

And lore never had "Thrall, level 5 Shaman", there was just "Thrall" or "Garrosh" or "Varian". They were just there.
Assuming that that's the path players take, their level is irrelevant to lore when talking about the kinds of monsters they face. Lorewise I think the level just places a character at some point in the story and progression of the story. They will eventually face off with these more powerful creatures, so why not just put them in there already? We don't start our characters as children anyways.

[Deleted]

Yeah, that's a cool idea. Would spice the fight up when you finally get to fight that specific kind of a mob. But its not bugging me that this mechanic isn't applied in WoW. The diversity of the mobs is more important imo.

[Deleted]

Levels don't mean anything to lore, nor should they.

EDIT: What istheshiz said.

[Deleted]

So at level 1-10 all we fight are scorpions and pigs?

That's kinda dull if you ask me.

Well there are many creatures that can vary in level drastically. Any of the player races for example - you can get a level 1 human bandit, or a level 70 human 7th Legion trooper. Regards to level not meaning anything in lore - you're right. But maybe it should? I dunno, I kinda like going from small-time mercenary to big goddamn hero over a long period of time - and I guess I like a number telling me how far along that scale I am

[taurendeathknight]

Levels don't mean anything to lore, nor should they.

EDIT: What istheshiz said.

Wow, I think some of you totally missed the point of his post.

He isn't saying that NPC levels are reflective of lore at all, he's saying that, if a certain type of Demon in lore is really powerful - then you should never find a level 5 Demon in-game cause quite clearly, the player is more powerful that it at a higher level. So, that Demon should always be say level 90 when we're 85 to show the fact that it is a very powerful creature ( as per lore ) and cannot be taken down easily.

Like the example, the elite of the Alliance army could be found as low level mobs - how is that elite? They can get farted on and drop dead from it. ;D

I agree with shitting myself whenever I saw a Mindflayer or Beholder in BG2 too - haha. Or a dragon, those were tough fights. =)

[Jademist]

Wow, I think some of you totally missed the point of his post.

He isn't saying that NPC levels are reflective of lore at all, he's saying that, if a certain type of Demon in lore is really powerful - then you should never find a level 5 Demon in-game cause quite clearly, the player is more powerful that it at a higher level. So, that Demon should always be say level 90 when we're 85 to show the fact that it is a very powerful creature ( as per lore ) and cannot be taken down easily.

Like the example, the elite of the Alliance army could be found as low level mobs - how is that elite? They can get farted on and drop dead from it. ;D

They don't really drop a power dreadlord such as Varimathras at level 10 now do they? :P nor would they put Cho'gall at the beginning of a quest.

To the OP: The sea witch in the Troll quest line was not defeated by the player alone. Vol'Jin was there while the player took care of the adds and stomping out the fires.

[Mandible]

regarding the seawitch - she isn´t a lvl 5. She is a lvl ?? and you get help from Vol´jin and Vanira who does the damage to her while you deal with the adds and her braziers (and no its not her cup holders).

But besides that yes I can agree with whats being said.

[zelamonster]

I'm actually more bothered by the fact that basic animals (wolves, boars, etc.) have such a huge range of levels. I mean, unless we're talking about something genetically engineered or demonically possessed, how much of a level range can there be? I have an easier time accepting a weak abomination than a naturally-occurring superbear.

Yes, I realize that levels don't exist in lore and that it's done to ensure quest variety, but it kind of bugs me that an inexperienced adventurer dies by basically setting foot outdoors in Northrend. Yes, I know I'm over-analyzing. :-p

[Rhywolver]

Levels aren't that important anymore. Remember rolling a toon and getting started in Northshire? Sure, wooden sword, wooden shield, they did everything to let you feel like a total loser that needs to grow up.

The problem was that most of the free-trial-players quit after a few levels. Because they didn't like to feel like some idiot that may be powerfull someday, but not now, not tomorrow. Games nowadays let you take immidiate action, you start of the middle of a war. I don't know when it started, but I remember the Dragon Age trailer. Or take the last expansions - step through the portal - total war. Arrive in Northend - total war. It's just a business model.

[Deleted]

Levels aren't that important anymore. Remember rolling a toon and getting started in Northshire? Sure, wooden sword, wooden shield, they did everything to let you feel like a total loser that needs to grow up.

The problem was that most of the free-trial-players quit after a few levels. Because they didn't like to feel like some idiot that may be powerfull someday, but not now, not tomorrow. Games nowadays let you take immidiate action, you start of the middle of a war. I don't know when it started, but I remember the Dragon Age trailer. Or take the last expansions - step through the portal - total war. Arrive in Northend - total war. It's just a business model.

I think you're probably correct. It's a shame though. I play RPGs because I like to feel that rise in power, I like upgrading skills and gear etc.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that there is no real sense of danger anymore, or sense of your characters place in the world.

Oh point taken about the Sea Witch, bad example. But the 7th Legion thing stands I think.

[Deleted]

So you didn't play 4E? Because in that you can scale any monster to any level. While older editions of DnD adhered to this rule, the game designers recognised that it's boring that you can only encounter certain type of mobs at lower levels. And also it takes away from the "heroic" or "epic" feel of the game. What is heroic about fighting rats, wolves or boars? Not much.
It's the same with WoW. It's meant to be fun, and the player should always feel like a hero.

And also don't forget, that these new batch of elites are deadly and formidable if you encounter them with a level appropiate character. The aformentioned Sea Witch oneshots you if you are lvl 5 (even in heirlooms), and neither can you kill the other quest Elites in the new zones.

[Kagdar]

Because bas ass monsters never were noob monsters at anytime?
I just leveled a troll druid in cata 1-60, and the mobs i encountered were not uber mobs. Sure i encountered some awesome mobs, but it always was with a cool animation/disguise/mount etc. never with my bare paws.

[Zuldain]

I think part of what builds your character into a hero is the fact that you're "the mage that defeated the 7th legion forces" or "the warrior that killed the giant yeti" etc etc... even though these might seem "far fetched" for a lvl 15/20/25 character, levels only exist as a game play mechanic used to guide you through the zones and the story lines.

You're level experience is really learning about how to harness and utilize your powers. Each individual already inherently has their abilities.

[Fierae]

It's more a case of (as an example) - dreadlords are meant to be powerful, therefore a level 10 character should not be killing them, as that evidently means the player is more powerful.

Yes, some are lesser dreadlords etc.. but not THAT weak.

[zelamonster]

So you didn't play 4E? Because in that you can scale any monster to any level. While older editions of DnD adhered to this rule, the game designers recognised that it's boring that you can only encounter certain type of mobs at lower levels. And also it takes away from the "heroic" or "epic" feel of the game. What is heroic about fighting rats, wolves or boars? Not much.
It's the same with WoW. It's meant to be fun, and the player should always feel like a hero.

And also don't forget, that these new batch of elites are deadly and formidable if you encounter them with a level appropiate character. The aformentioned Sea Witch oneshots you if you are lvl 5 (even in heirlooms), and neither can you kill the other quest Elites in the new zones.

It's one of the reasons I don't play 4E, actually. That and the inflexibility of character creation (not that WoW has flexibility either.) In fact, the whole thing feels like a WoW knockoff!

[Deleted]

I agree with the OP.. at least with the part that you shouldnt have any kind of lorewise powerful monster in starting areas when you are even in lore considered fresh. Once you exit though and people start to refer to you as hero etc everything could be possible since wow doesnt scale lorewise power with lvls.

[Zhalseran]

It's a nice sentiment, but I prefer it the way it is now. The low level experience is way, way more enjoyable when you are killing things that have meaning rather than whittling away the hours killing rats and boars.

[SoulPoetry]

i kind of agree that certain models should reflect a particular level of power. seeing level 5 aboms is an example, or a Deathknight NPC below 55, etc.