No i'm not a Vanilla Raider - And i'm damn glad i'm not.

[Italiano1]

I'm going to go right ahead and say this: Vanilla raiders were/are probaly worse players than those that began in Wrath and let me explain why.

I'm not a big fan of writing walls of texts that most people really can't be bothered to read, so i'll easily sum it all up in a few points.

1: You watch any video of an old ''Vanilla'' Raid. You'll be watching an idiot mashing random buttons, not utilising their dps rotations in anyway (by this i mean randomly moving when totally unecessary)

2: The majority of the player base most likely downed less than they said they had - Most never even reached the last tier. What does that say about the playerbase at the time? Only a few guilds out of every realm ever saw the back of Naxx?

3: No boss had a really intricate mechanic. MC? One big add you tank and spank that spawns a bunch of adds. BWL? Like any typical dragon encounter. NAXX? Majority are again tank and spank with an add or two here and there. You name me any encounter in Vanilla that even came up to the standards of some bosses in SWP or some of the Ulduar Hardmodes.

4: Most Raiders had no idea what theorycrafting is. This goes along with Dps utility i guess. Other than the fact the majority of raiders played with Basic UI's, there's barely any theorycrafting from before BC. Even in BC, there wasn't as much as there is now.

5: There was nothing complex in balancing gear. Now days you have multiple different stats to juggle around with, meaning insightful decisions need to be made when choosing your gear sets.

So please. When all you ''Vanilla Veterans'' go around digging on new content saying how ''Its not like the good'ole days'' just keep it to yourself. Because fact of the matter is Vanilla WoW looked absolutely awful. The only reason you liked it more at the beginning is because WoW was a new and exciting concept at the time that has slowly evolved into something even greater. No one likes an experience as much as the first time, it's a fact of life. Flame or Troll me as much as you want, i'm damn proud to say i began in BC and i'm even happier that i witnessed (and completed) some of the amazing encounters introduced during Wotlk. I know that Cataclysm Raid content is going to be even better and it will only continue to improve.


-------------------------

So i'm going to post my reply here to alot of your replies since alot of them are based on the same argument. Plus i know if i reply normally my post will just get eaten up.

Firstly, alot of you are completely misinterpreting this post. I'm not saying Vanilla raiding is stupid and didn't create any ground work for the game, because even i can accept that most things start badly and eventually get better (Or start good and become even better). But the point i'm trying to make is that alot of 'Vanilla Veterans' go around saying the game had more depth or 'Skill' intended to it where if you just look at most of the encounters (Bar the same encounter every person seems to fap about) they didn't require any skill or know-how of the game whatsoever. This being true, it just means the game was played by completly brainless turkeys that thought it was amazing and when they look back to it, they're completely clouded by that naivity.

Secondly, most of you have said ''You weren't in Vanilla so you can't comment about it'' Are you kidding me? That's the most pathetic thing i've ever heard. Does that go the same for WW2? Just because i wasn't in it, i can't say it was possibly one of the worst events to ever occur in the previous century? Your going to have to do better than that. Fact of the matter is i can give my opinion, on anything i want. Bottom line, i have a very strong opinion.

Thirdly, No, I didn't just ''Watch random videos of vanilla raids'' to determine the entire playerbase were idiots. But you can very easily get an extremely clear picture of the skill levels of most players. I didn't just watch one, i've watched Hundreds. And almost every video involves the same spectacles of barely any movement needed, people clicking (I'm not bringing this argument up, but key binding is used by most of the playerbase who are in better guilds so can we just leave it at that) and finally just stupid things being done by stupid people. Alot of people have said that there wasn't a need for theorycrafting but this is an exact reason why they could have been better if there was theorycrafting. Maybe identifying when a healer would go oom, or adjusting their rotations so they didn't go oom so much. Infact one of you even said there was a prot/arms spec better than a pure prot spec, and then said theorycrafting wasn't needed - I mean come on, that's theorycrafting alone right there.

Now alot of you have said that only Mastery has been brought into the game? Not only have other stats like Haste, gem slots, profession bonuses and the bigger use of Mp5 etc been brought in, but tier sets have actually had their 2/4 set bonuses adjusted so their more than adequate. Alot of the old tier sets were silly little pure stat bonuses which was useless back then (but would be good for now considering the introduction of the importance of stats for all classes, but lets try to ignore that for a second). So i'm sorry, but anyone that says balancing gear was harder then than it is now has clearly got those ''Red Tinted Goggles'' on.

Finally, most of you have made some extremely valid points. This isn't a ''You have to agree with me or you're an idiot'' kind of thread, this is souly my opinion - which i'm entitled to; just as you are entitled to yours. But again, and i can't stress this enough, the point i'm making is that the game has evolved and become so much better in every aspect that anyone that can say or even think Vanilla was remotely better than even an expansion like wrath are stuck in a time of complete ignorance and won't accept that the game has become better.

TL;DR? ... WRATH > TBC > VANILLA

[mercutiouk]

I'm going to go right ahead and say this: Vanilla raiders were/are probaly worse players than those that began in Wrath and let me explain why.

I'm not a big fan of writing walls of texts that most people really can't be bothered to read, so i'll easily sum it all up in a few points.

1: You watch any video of an old ''Vanilla'' Raid. You'll be watching an idiot mashing random buttons, not utilising their dps rotations in anyway (by this i mean randomly moving when totally unecessary)

2: The majority of the player base most likely downed less than they said they had - Most never even reached the last tier. What does that say about the playerbase at the time? Only a few guilds out of every realm ever saw the back of Naxx?

3: No boss had a really intricate mechanic. MC? One big add you tank and spank that spawns a bunch of adds. BWL? Like any typical dragon encounter. NAXX? Majority are again tank and spank with an add or two here and there. You name me any encounter in Vanilla that even came up to the standards of some bosses in SWP or some of the Ulduar Hardmodes.

4: Most Raiders had no idea what theorycrafting is. This goes along with Dps utility i guess. Other than the fact the majority of raiders played with Basic UI's, there's barely any theorycrafting from before BC. Even in BC, there wasn't as much as there is now.

5: There was nothing complex in balancing gear. Now days you have multiple different stats to juggle around with, meaning insightful decisions need to be made when choosing your gear sets.

So please. When all you ''Vanilla Veterans'' go around digging on new content saying how ''Its not like the good'ole days'' just keep it to yourself. Because fact of the matter is Vanilla WoW looked absolutely awful. The only reason you liked it more at the beginning is because WoW was a new and exciting concept at the time that has slowly evolved into something even greater. No one likes an experience as much as the first time, it's a fact of life. Flame or Troll me as much as you want, i'm damn proud to say i began in BC and i'm even happier that i witnessed (and completed) some of the amazing encounters introduced during Wotlk. I know that Cataclysm Raid content is going to be even better and it will only continue to improve.

I think a lot of genuine (and mentally stable, decent, happyish, normalish) vanilla players would agree that things are better than vanilla. The nostalgia is good but...

Like putin said about russia: Anyone who doesn't miss the old Russia has no heart, anyone who wants it back has no sense (slightly paraphrased but that about covers it).

[hordeorcrogue]

In before this gets ripped open.

[Vekrah]

Everything will seem outdated when it's...well, outdated. Those dragon mechanics and randomly spawning adds that needed to be picked up only seem unimpressive now because they've been done so many times. When it first came out, they really gave the raider something to think about. It all comes down to consequence. In classic, if the adds weren't managed properly, the result was death. If you stood in something bright and shiny, you died. Nowadays, it's not that way.

I'm not here to "flame" or "troll" nor am I here to say that any group was better or worse than the other...it's just different. Hopefully Cata brings back the concept of consequence.

[xavierjn]

I respect anyone's opinion, normally, and I would have respected yours if it wasn't presented in such a harsh tone.
Since you did not experience Vanilla, then you have absolutely no comprehension of the emotions that many of us veterans talk about when we discuss 'Old Times'.
Hence: no respect for you!

Edit: After reading it over another three times, I guess it's not as harsh as it sounded the first time. It just irk'd me when you made the comment to 'keep it to ourselves'. Many of us do truly love talking about those old days. My first entrance into MC was completely different than my first entrance into Naxx 25. I am sure a lot of us feel that difference, whether positive or negative.

[Brittany]

I'm a Vanilla player. I don't want to re-hash what I said in the other post about how great and wonderful Vanilla was, but I agree with you. People look on it with rose tinted spectacles. There is a reason the game has gone in the direction it has and in most peoples eyes it's for the best.

Personally I'm not sure if i like Wrath WoW as much as I liked TBC WoW but both were significantly better than Vanilla.

It's just rose tinted spectacles. Not being able to raid, having half the raid being useless, having 10 hour long BGs you couldn't see the end of, having flightpaths you could leave your house, go have a coffee with your neighbour, come back and still be flying. There was a lot of bad in Vanilla WoW that people easily forget.

[Gharld]

1) Agree with you there, but then again you had 40 people so you did have room for retards.
2) Which says that the content was much harder to get to, as there were no heroics to spam run for free epics. Compared to "lul free ICC"..ya
3) First boss in BWL would like to have a word with you. Also first boss in AQ40 mind snatchin your peoples up. Twins and C'thun werent exactly easy either.
4) I will say this, while getting into Wrath or even BC raiding was easier than it seems it should, Vanilla was an absolute horror to gear up in, considering again, no heroics, and I mean you COULD run UBRS in mostly blues, but you werent anything special even then.
5) Instead you had to juggle gear that had no interchangeable stats. Warrior Tiers 1-3? Ya all tanking stuff. You for the most part had a set role in old raiding, which sucked, but it worked none the less. Warr tanks, pally heals, shammy heals, etc.

[Deleted]

Like putin said about russia: Anyone who doesn't miss the old Russia has no heart, anyone who wants it back has no sense (slightly paraphrased but that about covers it).

The way I see it, this is proberbly the best way to sum up the whole vanilla vs. the rest thing! Well done Vladimir

[NGRazor]

The problem with Vanilla raiding is that really good players carried really bad ones, something that you can't do as much in a 25 man raid.

Also, in some ways I think it's better that there wasn't a definitive source of what was best, it allowed the players that did spend time on such things to stand out. How is theorycrafting any better today? 99% of the playerbase just copies EJ and doesn't experiment or do maths on their own.

[TotalFreak]

If you didn't raid in Vanilla, then don't talk about Vanilla. Simple as that, it's like you can't say you don't like mustard if you never had mustard.

[sennzlol]

1. invalid.

2. Flipped back at you - What does that say about the content at the time? to the content now?

3. twin emps, 4 horsemen.

4. There wasnt much to "theorycraft". Sup mages spamming frostbolt.

5. Balancing stats is hard? when you can now have simulations, spreadsheets and lists of items that are best in that slot.

[Venziir]

What's all this then? A thread regarding vanilla, that isn't clouded with nostalgia and random crap? My oh my! :O

... I played Vanilla, I raided Vanilla, I pvp'ed Vanilla.... It was dreadful, no one knew what they were doing, and no one knew that they were doing it wrong... Perhaps that is why the "Vanilla was teh best!!11" illusion is still running strong... Because no one actually knew that they were bad.... Hm

[Kaleid]

Like putin said about russia: Anyone who doesn't miss the old Russia has no heart, anyone who wants it back has no sense (slightly paraphrased but that about covers it).

"Whoever does not miss the Soviet Union has no heart. Whoever wants it back has no brain." - Vladimir Putin

[Nymos]

for me (players considaration, not the content):

TBC players > Vanila players > WotLK players

Why ?

Cuz WotLK players have a LOT of easy modes and dont have a CLUE about what is a strategy ....(of course not everyone, but i belive in the majority)
Vanila players know a lot about the game, have been played the game have a while, then, they know one or two things more...

TBC players are the best (not cuz i'm one), they know the old times, they learned the patience with the old ones, i learn a lot about the "how wow and mmo works"

This is my opinion

[Brittany]

Also WoW Vanilla raiding wasn't as "hard" as people remember.

The biggest difficulty with raiding in vanilla was organisation. People fondly look back on 40 man raids but forget how difficult it was to get 40 people together and online at the same time every night who all knew what they were doing.

It's why most people didn't see the content. Not because it was hard or it didn't give out "free epics" (it did, you could afk a raid, and loot the epic that dropped).

[Noakh]

3: No boss had a really intricate mechanic. MC? One big add you tank and spank that spawns a bunch of adds. BWL? Like any typical dragon encounter. NAXX? Majority are again tank and spank with an add or two here and there. You name me any encounter in Vanilla that even came up to the standards of some bosses in SWP or some of the Ulduar Hardmodes.

I disagree, at least with BWL. Razorgore was an incredibly fun and chaotic fight; Vaelastrasz's burning essence is still the most fun debuff in all of wow (in my opinion). Even Nefarion had his "Class Call" mechanic that made him unique and interesting. Now I'm by no means saying that wow was better then; it wasn't. But, at least give it a little credit.

[TotalFreak]

The people I played with in Vanilla were the best people I have ever played with because they played for the sake of the game, they were the most committed to raiding and pvping, unlike now when raiders are not loyal, you have guild hoppers, the works, it's somewhat insulting that people post stuff like this, since you have no idea what you are talking about, and you got your info from YouTube videos, you should just not talk about it. & what I said above.

ICC is the easiest instance I have ever been in. I find it funny, if you don't have a 277 piece of loot you are automatically labeled bad by "GearScore," and you won't be invited to raids! GOGO WOTLK!

[Nymos]

1. invalid.

2. Flipped back at you - What does that say about the content at the time? to the content now?

3. twin emps, 4 horsemen.

4. There wasnt much to "theorycraft". Sup mages spamming frostbolt.

5. Balancing stats is hard? when you can now have simulations, spreadsheets and lists of items that are best in that slot.

i think that:

Players in Vanila dont care about it, they knew that class A or B was trash to raid. and it's ALL....

u talked about the 4 horsemen, Twin and forget the C'thun (and that is ALL).

ppl blame locks a lot in TBC cuz they spam 1 button, but in vanila was not SOOOO diferent (and was not just lock ...)

[Silenti]

Nonsensical post from somebody who doesn't know what he doesn't know, and is butt hurt about name calling in WoW. Get some self esteem. You sound like a whiny baby.

[Deleted]

You're glad your not?

Let me tell you most guilds in vanilla maybe organisation team aside had a blast in vanilla. The guild and raiding atmosphere was totally different from now plus it was all totally new to everyone.

Your statements are also unbiased and totally not constructive at all. Random troll alert.