Haste: the reason why pre-WotLK healers are generally better

[Tehfred]

I've seen countless arguments as to why vanilla raiders are supposed to be better than those who started late in the game. Being one of those players, I have to agree to an extent. Here's why: haste.

Haste was abruptly introduced sometime in TBC (it was either during BT or Sunwell I believe). It became the reason why Sunwell locks did literally nothing but press Shadow Bolt. It became the force behind Chain Heal not being useless. Fast forward to late-WotLK, and haste is the godmode stat. Every single caster loved it like crack. Especially shaman healers. High crit ratings on gear meant absurd returns on IWS, so of course haste was the best stat choice for output since mana was a nonissue. Fast forward finally to Cataclysm, where mana IS an issue. Haste has all but bottomed out for healers as a stat choice. Second only to mastery for resto shaman as the most useless stat.

Getting to the point of all this: those of us healers that lived the "glory days" should already know how to heal effectively without haste. Those who joined the game later, haste has always been there. Now some of those healers are still using it and wondering why they're OOMing seemingly too soon. With Cataclysm's healing model, proactive healing plays a much greater role. Starting casts in anticipation of damage, as well as paying attention to overheal, is a vastly different playstyle than haste-kiddies are used to.

So, in effect, us veterans have a head start on the curve. Sure, there are probably many players out there who started late but made the adjustment fine. However, I'd wager that's the exception and not the rule.

Thoughts?

[Hoddie]

Haste has all but bottomed out for everyone as a stat choice.

If you're talking about healers only then fair enough, otherwise this statement isn't true.

[Tehfred]

If you're talking about healers only then fair enough, otherwise this statement isn't true.

Yeah, I should have clarified that.

[Whiskra]

I started playing healer during WotLK and I didn't really start to read up on what stats are best/worst for my class until mid-Ulduar. I get compliments all the time on how good of a healer I am, from whole WotLK til now...

But then again, I play a paladin. Haste is atm our 3rd best stat after Intellect and Spirit.

[LeetHaxor]

I'm pretty sure you have no idea what you're talking about as haste right below int and spirit for disc priests.

[Weerra]

The only reason pre-wotlk healers are better is because they have more experience with the game globally.
Any one who was playing it for so long can easily adjust to anything required. Haste=godstat => no problem; haste=crapstat => no problem.

Anyone who had seriously played through most of wotlk ALSO has enough experience to adjust.

Only problem are the ones who started playing at all already in 30% buff faceroll and hasterule goodness. They have learned that haste is awesome but they don't have enough general experience and skill to adjust quickly.

But please don't equalise them 30%-ers with ALL players who started playing in wotlk. Early and middle wotlk players are not exceptions, they are part of the rule. Exceptions are late-wotlk players who still manage to adjust.

[CRANKY]

i dont think any expansion had better or worse players. i think that wrath set the bar low even the "veterans" when it comes to mechanics and crowd control of cata. on anther note i played vanilla and i do agree that to an extent new wrath players tend to need a litle extra work. BUT my wife started in wrath and is now raiding 25 mans in cata. im not going to lie it was hard at first to break my wrath minds set but imagine how rough it is for the guys who didnt start untill wrath. these guys literally have to re learn how to pull trash kite adds and stand out of fire all at the same time. instead of one at a time. not that its really hard but its harder then what they have had to do as of wrath i say give them some time theyll come around! <3

[Deleted]

I've played a holy paladin since vanilla and have gone from Endless mana batteries from crit; To a crit haste hybrid stat build in SWP and then finally to pure haste in WoTLK.

However, I disagree completely that haste has lost it value, especially so for Holy Paladins. Sitting at a 2.0 second cast time for Holy Light and Divine light is just not good enough. Haste has a very high healing throughput for Paladins especially when you gem for Int/haste in yellows and int/spirit in Blues.

[Hoddie]

I knew a few vanilla-era players who constantly whined about how easy the game was when Ulduar was end-game, and most of them used this as an excuse to quit (often to return). Truth is, every single one of these guys failed at the game, with low dps, crappy reactions and piss-poor tank positioning. The game has evolved; it didn't become easier, it became different. People who hark back to the 'Vanilla goodness' have selective memories. It became less of a time-sink and sadly (or not), those who equated /played to skill have been left behind.

Weerra almost has the right idea but then spoiled it by agreeing with the 'wrath = bad' mantra, albeit with narrow parameters.

Some people who were amazing in Vanilla sucked in TBC. Some who were amazing in both sucked in Wrath. Some who were amazing right through Wrath will suck in Cataclysm. Each and every one of them will probably say the game's got easier and use this as an excuse to not participate in end-game. They'll either rage quit or otherwise sit on the sidelines doing dailies and whining to anyone who'll listen about the good ol' days. They'll refuse to adapt because of their "why should I have to?" attitude. And you know what, nobody will care.

People who say Cata heroics are harder than Wrath heroics clearly didn't do Halls of Lightning heroic in TBC gear or Wrath quest greens. Nor AN or OK or Oculus or UP or one or two others I've probably forgotten. They all became easy very, very quickly as you out-geared them, just as the BC ones did when people ran with SSC, TK gear or above.

Back to OP, haste may be poor in comparison to some other stats at the moment, but that will surely change as gear inflation kicks in. It has nothing to do whatsoever with Vanilla vs Wrath vs Cata.

[Deleted]

I knew a few vanilla-era players who constantly whined about how easy the game was when Ulduar was end-game, and most of them used this as an excuse to quit (often to return). Truth is, every single one of these guys failed at the game, with low dps, crappy reactions and piss-poor tank positioning. The game has evolved; it didn't become easier, it became different. People who hark back to the 'Vanilla goodness' have selective memories. It became less of a time-sink and sadly (or not), those who equated /played to skill have been left behind.

Weerra almost has the right idea but then spoiled it by agreeing with the 'wrath = bad' mantra, albeit with narrow parameters.

Some people who were amazing in Vanilla sucked in TBC. Some who were amazing in both sucked in Wrath. Some who were amazing right through Wrath will suck in Cataclysm. Each and every one of them will probably say the game's got easier and use this as an excuse to not participate in end-game. They'll either rage quit or otherwise sit on the sidelines doing dailies and whining to anyone who'll listen about the good ol' days. They'll refuse to adapt because of their "why should I have to?" attitude. And you know what, nobody will care.

People who say Cata heroics are harder than Wrath heroics clearly didn't do Halls of Lightning heroic in TBC gear or Wrath quest greens. Nor AN or OK or Oculus or UP or one or two others I've probably forgotten. They all became easy very, very quickly as you out-geared them, just as the BC ones did when people ran with SSC, TK gear or above.

Back to OP, haste may be poor in comparison to some other stats at the moment, but that will surely change as gear inflation kicks in. It has nothing to do whatsoever with Vanilla vs Wrath vs Cata.

I disagree, the game definitely became easier in wrath, I ran those dungeons you listed in T6.5 gear and they were not challenging, people could still stand in 'fire' (say maiden of Griefs AoE, or even Lokens lightning nova) and not be killed very quickly. Crowd control was also completely redundant from day one as well. Healing Mobs didn't heal for enough to make them worth it (unless your dps was literally terrible) and mobs with AoE abilities tended not to do too much damage either. That's being said by a Holy Paladin who's only source of AoE healing was Glyph of Holy light followed up by spamming each person with a flash of light.

Another point is that within a week and half of Wrath launch my guild (was server 3rd at the time) had most of naxx cleared, as well as OS 0d down. The bosses were dull (Naxx was just tuned up in numbers, but also tuned down from being end game to being starter content) and you really had to go out of your way to mess up.
Fast Forward to BWD/ToTFW/BoT and you have bosses which require a lot of Raid co-ordination, spell abilities that will kill you instantly if you mess up and finally lots of pressure on healers. Heroics are doing their function of providing a relevant challenge to lesser geared players as well as forcing them to CC, not stand in sh*t and to focus single target dps. Players then carry that knowledge into raids where it is then tested.

[GhostShaman]

I knew a few vanilla-era players who constantly whined about how easy the game was when Ulduar was end-game, and most of them used this as an excuse to quit (often to return). Truth is, every single one of these guys failed at the game, with low dps, crappy reactions and piss-poor tank positioning. The game has evolved; it didn't become easier, it became different. People who hark back to the 'Vanilla goodness' have selective memories. It became less of a time-sink and sadly (or not), those who equated /played to skill have been left behind.

Weerra almost has the right idea but then spoiled it by agreeing with the 'wrath = bad' mantra, albeit with narrow parameters.

Some people who were amazing in Vanilla sucked in TBC. Some who were amazing in both sucked in Wrath. Some who were amazing right through Wrath will suck in Cataclysm. Each and every one of them will probably say the game's got easier and use this as an excuse to not participate in end-game. They'll either rage quit or otherwise sit on the sidelines doing dailies and whining to anyone who'll listen about the good ol' days. They'll refuse to adapt because of their "why should I have to?" attitude. And you know what, nobody will care.

People who say Cata heroics are harder than Wrath heroics clearly didn't do Halls of Lightning heroic in TBC gear or Wrath quest greens. Nor AN or OK or Oculus or UP or one or two others I've probably forgotten. They all became easy very, very quickly as you out-geared them, just as the BC ones did when people ran with SSC, TK gear or above.

Back to OP, haste may be poor in comparison to some other stats at the moment, but that will surely change as gear inflation kicks in. It has nothing to do whatsoever with Vanilla vs Wrath vs Cata.

As a vanilla player I can honestly say you have some gaps in your statement. I was good in vanilla, great in TBC, better in wrath and I have no doubt in cata that we will be even better. AS the game evolves so have I as a player. However your problem is that you need to listen to the logic that you are employing. Just like any other kiddies you assume that just because you hit max level that automatically gives you the right to start the "badge grind" and go straight into heroics. Even you said "People who say Cata heroics are harder than Wrath heroics clearly didn't do Halls of Lightning heroic in TBC gear or Wrath quest greens." So without doing any of the work you jumped right into a heroic without gearing through regulars first. This a commonality that you see from post vanilla players, and I believe this is why the vanilla players are talking more garbage because now we are in a system where you cant just jump into heroics without the gear because 1. the queue makes you have a minimum item level, and 2. if you join a random and just ahve bought gear to stick in your bags just to be able to do heroics....they are going to call you out on it. The OP was just showing the evolution of healing and how things are changing with stats, and you make it into a vanilla players are pompous QQ fest. Those players that refuse to adapt have already quit playing, so whatever you are complaining about has become senseless. The biggest complaints I hear from vanilla players was that it was too easy to gear anyone anymore, and there was no more prestige with gear, and I most certainly do agree. With Cata out the way it is now, I like the fact that they make it harder to gain epics. Yes it is more inline with BC, and yes they will continue adding epics until the term welfare is popular again. However for the meantime I enjoy the hard work that it takes to gain those items.

Just my 2 cents from a vanilla player which some of you kiddies keep crying about...

[smashzu]

I'm fairly sure the OP doesn't understand HPS throughput and how it relates to haste and mana regen.
Haste allows you to use your mana efficient heal more often, and thus allowing you to have a MUCH higher hps while keeping your overall mana cost down.
It also allows you to react to damage better. In the current healing model with low haste, with large amounts of damage going out, you don't have a choice but to let someone die, because you can get too far into the weeds to ever get out. Aside from raising spell power by a phenomenal amount (which wouldnt work considering how little heals scale with sp atm) the only other way to increase your hps is haste. The amount of damage is not going to go down, its going to get much, much higher.

Just curious OP, hav you been inside blackwing descent? BoT?
If you have ever healed any of those fights I suspect your misguided views on haste would be much much different.

TL;DR: OP doesn't understand hps, and likely has never healed anything more difficult than reg dungeons.

[CRANKY]

of course he was good in vanilla better in tbc and great in wrath! why wouldnt he be.. HE STARTED IN VANILLA! i mean cmon thats a insta " im better then you " badge I sure wish i could have one!!! NOT just saying all that post reply did was prove his point GJ!

---------- Post added 2010-12-19 at 06:53 AM ----------

ALSO for the record for the ima a vanilla player so im just better dudes out there. i never saw a complain to blizzard that wrath was to easy and not fun. i wonder why? and now when cata is harder ( but imo still fun) all you guys jump on the band wagon.

[Deleted]

i have played since vanilla and im a resto shammy, im reforging to haste as our most mana effective heal is 2sec+ its not usless if you play correctly

use the correct spells and you dont have to stack spirit you can still go for haste/crit

[Weerra]

I didn't agree with "wrath=bad". Only thing I said is that the people who didn't heal anything except 30% buff normal ICC and overgeared everything else will HAVE to learn. People who played longer than that will have no problems.

i have played since vanilla and im a resto shammy, im reforging to haste as our most mana effective heal is 2sec+ its not usless if you play correctly

use the correct spells and you dont have to stack spirit you can still go for haste/crit

There is not enough ilvl to get your haste and crit anywhere serious.

[Qarling]

WotLK heroics hard? First heroic I did was HoL and i remember it being fairly easy.

[Crona]

People who say Cata heroics are harder than Wrath heroics clearly didn't do Halls of Lightning heroic in TBC gear or Wrath quest greens. Nor AN or OK or Oculus or UP or one or two others I've probably forgotten. They all became easy very, very quickly as you out-geared them, just as the BC ones did when people ran with SSC, TK gear or above.

Cata heroics are definately harder then Wotlk heroics. Even with the gear you obtained when freshly dinged. I agree that there were some challenging mechanics in some of the heroics. But very few of them were really threatning. I started tanking heroics with 20k health not defense capped and we rarely whiped at all. And with full emblems gear it was a walk in the park.

In Cata however there are alot of more boss mechanics that will one shot you if you dont pay attention. And i personally think this is alot better preparation to raids then the wotlk heroics were.

[underdogba]

The OP's observation is really just a stereotype based on making a gross generalization about what haste supposedly does, with absolutely no context with respect to the actual mechanics of classes. Haste is a stat that increases your throughput. Its average effect over time is to increase your heal/s across the board. With respect to actual playstyle, haste is not necessarily some kind of faceroll stat that allows bad healer to spam buttons fast, as suggested by the OP. In the current climate, haste changes the feel of cheaper, slower spells and makes them more widely useable.

In reality, haste is not the reason newschool healers are generally bad. Not having to worry about mana and overheals is.

[Ares42]

Hmm, pretty sure we would've never killed Chimaeron if haste wasn't one of my focus stats. While I can agree that there's alot of stuff where haste isn't really needed, there's definitely some encounters where it's very very valuable. Also, as you gear up abit more your regen starts to reach the tipping point where you sorta want to spend mana quicker.

[eldritchknight]

I've played a holy paladin since vanilla and have gone from Endless mana batteries from crit; To a crit haste hybrid stat build in SWP and then finally to pure haste in WoTLK.

However, I disagree completely that haste has lost it value, especially so for Holy Paladins. Sitting at a 2.0 second cast time for Holy Light and Divine light is just not good enough. Haste has a very high healing throughput for Paladins especially when you gem for Int/haste in yellows and int/spirit in Blues.

This. Haste is a fantastic stat for holy paladins, and it's generally ideal for us to reforge other secondary stats to that.

I think you're putting way too much emphasis on a single stat as the cause for anything. There are other stats now that people want, and should make them no more or less effective if the stat is good for that class. And besides, a pretty big chunk of the "curve" is just getting the right gear. I'm almost entirely in 246 gear, with a couple epics, and I have no trouble healing heroics anymore unless someone does something stupid.