[TV] Doctor Who

[Khime]

I don't really mind the political commentary. It was heavy handed but for me it didn't take away from the enjoyment.

past episode is one of the worst i've seen. even if i put aside the political message being shoved down my throat, it had loads of problems. it was like they asked a handful of interns to throw something together.

Maybe it's because I'm over here in the USA, but I didn't pick up on any political commentary. The only thing I could think that might be an analog would be the Syrian civil war refugees, but I thought that those refugees didn't begin to impact the EU until well after Series 9 was done filming, so I initially dismissed that connection.

[Deleted]

Maybe it's because I'm over here in the USA, but I didn't pick up on any political commentary. The only thing I could think that might be an analog would be the Syrian civil war refugees, but I thought that those refugees didn't begin to impact the EU until well after Series 9 was done filming, so I initially dismissed that connection.

The Doctor literally said "If you bomb them, you'll radicalise the lot!" which is a pretty central tenant of the anti-war argument. You don't use that argument in the US? And obviously immigration is a larger theme than just specifically the Syrian refugee crisis.

[Feredir]

The Doctor literally said "If you bomb them, you'll radicalise the lot!" which is a pretty central tenant of the anti-war argument. You don't use that argument in the US? And obviously immigration is a larger theme than just specifically the Syrian refugee crisis.

Sadly no, what I often hear is "Bomb the desert until its glass!"

[Kokolums]

The Doctor literally said "If you bomb them, you'll radicalise the lot!" which is a pretty central tenant of the anti-war argument.

Which is obviously untrue. The allies bombed Nazi Germany. The firebombing of Dresden. And none of that radicalized them more. The way to end radicalization is to take control of the media and schools. (That's also the way to radicalize people BTW). If you use the media to keep retelling the story of war crime a certain group committed, it will stay in the public consciousness and the hate will never truly go away. But if you take control of the media and make sure the story is never told, it falls out of the public consciousness and the radicalizing element disappears.

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If the US won world war 2, took over the German schools and media, and fed their people a neverending stream of reports of any questionable action the allies took against Germany, THAT would have radicalized the hell out of them. That's how to radicalize. Not bombing.

[eschatological]

I picked up on the political commentary, yeah. WWII is obviously different from today, but the idea is that if you bomb a population that doesn't really hate you but has radical fringe (and severely minor) elements that do, you make that fringe more sympathetic, and more likely to grow. That's the whole basis behind ISIS, it was the whole basis behind Al Qaeda, it's why we lost Vietnam, etc, etc, etc, etc.

I thought this episode was kind of scattered. Maybe because it literally took place in three different locations. I'm still not really clear why this one group of Zygons broke the peace. They don't like that they have to hide on a planet which isn't their native home? They want to be accepted for their true selves? What?

[Kokolums]

I picked up on the political commentary, yeah. WWII is obviously different from today, but the idea is that if you bomb a population that doesn't really hate you but has radical fringe (and severely minor) elements that do, you make that fringe more sympathetic, and more likely to grow. That's the whole basis behind ISIS, it was the whole basis behind Al Qaeda, it's why we lost Vietnam, etc, etc, etc, etc.

None of that is true. America voluntarily pulled out of Vietnam and Iraq because the American public said they needed to pull out. The actual war was won both times. The Tet Offensive in Vietnam was a total victory for the US. And that was it. The Viet Cong were defeated. The American people said let's pull out now, so they did. As far as Iraq, it was total victory. But the question was: should they nation build or pull out? The Americans said let's pull out. So they did. After pulling out, extremist factions took over both times. But that is not because they won, the Americans just left.

In no way was either one a defeat.

[Rixis]

What did the Americans win?

[Kokolums]

What did the Americans win?

In Vietnam, the Americans won every battle they chose to fight. Then when they had enough, they pulled out and returned home. In Iraq it was same, plus overthrowing Saddam. But it wasn't like they were driven out or anything. The Viet Cong were utterly defeated. The Iraq defense was totally smashed.

[Elim Garak]

In Vietnam, the Americans won every battle they chose to fight. Then when they had enough, they pulled out and returned home..

Oh my, the propaganda is strong in this one...

They may have won most of battles, but they lost the war. The USA's goal was to prevent unification of North and South Vietnam under the communist rule. They have failed, they pulled out, went home and two years later North Vietnam army had taken Saigon and North Vietnam was reunited with South Vietnam under North Vietnam's communist rule. A total failure for USA.

[Kokolums]

Oh my, the propaganda is strong in this one...

They may have won most of battles, but they lost the war. The USA's goal was to prevent unification of North and South Vietnam under the communist rule. They have failed, they pulled out, went home and two years later North Vietnam army had taken Saigon and North Vietnam was reunited with South Vietnam under North Vietnam's communist rule. A total failure for USA.

No actually the Americans were winning everything over there. They just packed up went home and stopped supporting the forces fighting the remnants of the Viet Cong. They didn't fail first and then went home. They just went home.

I think it was mostly fatigue. America had been at war non-stop since Pearl Harbor. They won WWII, then they fought the Korean War right after that, and then went into Vietnam right after that. They had basically been at war nonstop for 25 years. It was time to stop.

[Elim Garak]

No actually the Americans were winning everything over there. They just packed up went home and stopped supporting the forces fighting the remnants of the Viet Cong. They didn't fail first and then went home. They just went home.

Lol. Why did they go home if they were winning left and right? Please don't say "public demanded it", because it doesn't answer the question of why did public demand it if USA was winning...

Fatigue my ass... you would be fatigued if you were "winning" every battle but could not win the war... the weaker Vietnam just wearied the stronger USA out. It's a kind of strategy...

[Kokolums]

Lol. Why did they go home if they were winning left and right? Please don't say "public demanded it", because it doesn't answer the question of why did public demand it if USA was winning...

It DOES answer it. Americans just didn't want to fight in Vietnam anymore because they were sick of it, not that they were losing. I don't know why you don't want to accept the truth. We all saw that happen again in Iraq. Americans just got tired of fighting over there. So they left.

[Elim Garak]

It DOES answer it. Americans just didn't want to fight in Vietnam anymore because they were sick of it, not that they were losing. I don't know why you don't want to accept the truth.

Because it's a lie. You are the one in denial. USA has lost the war. It's a historical fact. Period.

[Kokolums]

Because it's a lie. You are the one in denial. USA has lost the war. It's a historical fact. Period.

Explain to me how exactly they lost. What major battles did the Viet Cong win over the US? They didn't. The US just left. You can't just assert something. You need more than that.

[Rixis]

Explain to me how exactly they lost.

The entire basis of their entering into the war was to prevent the thing that happened.

Anyway, this is an aside and not really relevant.

[Kelimbror]

The Doctor would not be impressed by our line of conversation.

[Khime]

Explain to me how exactly they lost. What major battles did the Viet Cong win over the US? They didn't. The US just left. You can't just assert something. You need more than that.

This is just arguing semantics. "Winning a war" is not defined as winning every single battle. The United States had an objective when they went into Vietnam; that objective was not met.

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Anyway, this is an aside and not really relevant.

Er.... (insert comment relating this conversation to the Time War). Phew!

[Deleted]

This thread is about Doctor Who, not about Why/how/if/when US lost the Vietnam War. Stop it right now or I will start handing out infractions for spam/OT.

[Rixis]

Personally I've not disliked Clara this series. For some reason I was a little bored with the Me episode, not sure why.

[Khime]

Personally I've not disliked Clara this series. For some reason I was a little bored with the Me episode, not sure why.

For most of the Me episode, the only real 'threat' was that she had lost her humanity over the centuries, which while interesting is hardly thrilling.