[TV] Doctor Who

[Deleted]

my impression of hell bent was that the general changed genders often, not that she was always female and then just poofed into male

and im not saying gay = trans but its not that common for their to be trans who are attracted to the gender their switching too. the master couldve just been gay but the master DID change genders so it very much is evidence the master could be trans

The General specifically said (to paraphrase) "I'm back to normal am I? that was the only time I've been a man - cringey fauxmenist comment about men's egos." And I think that that was a very specific choice to canonically squish the arguments about "why would the Doctor randomly become a woman after 13 male regenerations?"

As for the gay/trans thing - if they're attracted to people of their birth sex, then they're straight. Because on the whole people of their assigned birth sex will be of the opposite gender to them. It's a little confusing because the language has not yet adapted to accommodate trans* people. But anyway...

You're right that now that the Master has changed genders you could construe that as evidence that she's identified as a she all along. But prior to that there's been no evidence of that that I am aware of. You're using the benefit of hindsight. "Well clearly Missy is trans* because she changed genders, but the Doctor obviously isn't because he has never changed genders." Even though up until last year the Master's gender situation was exactly the same as the Doctor's. I.e decades of multiple, male only regenerations.

[Immitis]

The General specifically said (to paraphrase) "I'm back to normal am I? that was the only time I've been a man - cringey fauxmenist comment about men's egos." And I think that that was a very specific choice to canonically squish the arguments about "why would the Doctor randomly become a woman after 13 male regenerations?"

As for the gay/trans thing - if they're attracted to people of their birth sex, then they're straight. Because on the whole people of their assigned birth sex will be of the opposite gender to them. It's a little confusing because the language has not yet adapted to accommodate trans* people. But anyway...

You're right that now that the Master has changed genders you could construe that as evidence that she's identified as a she all along. But prior to that there's been no evidence of that that I am aware of. You're using the benefit of hindsight. "Well clearly Missy is trans* because she changed genders, but the Doctor obviously isn't because he has never changed genders." Even though up until last year the Master's gender situation was exactly the same as the Doctor's. I.e decades of multiple, male only regenerations.

i guess i missed that line.

and its less hindsight and more me thinking the way moffat wrote it.

moffat wrote time crash, the episode where the doctor basically confirmed that the master was gay by calling his wife a beard, and then as soon as he turned the master ito a woman had her make a big deal about her changing her name to mistress and having the doctor call her a timelady not a timelord and immediately acted on her feelings towards the doctor as if being a man was the only thing ever holding that back (although personally i think the doctor is somewhat omnisexual/pansexual, is omnisexual a thing? idk if i just made that up or not)

which makes me think the master might have been ashamed or even self loathing. for me i got the impression a weight had been lifted from the master and that the noise in his head was the main culprit

[Deleted]

i guess i missed that line.

and its less hindsight and more me thinking the way moffat wrote it.

moffat wrote time crash, the episode where the doctor basically confirmed that the master was gay by calling his wife a beard, and then as soon as he turned the master ito a woman had her make a big deal about her changing her name to mistress and having the doctor call her a timelady not a timelord and immediately acted on her feelings towards the doctor as if being a man was the only thing ever holding that back (although personally i think the doctor is somewhat omnisexual/pansexual, is omnisexual a thing? idk if i just made that up or not)

which makes me think the master might have been ashamed or even self loathing. for me i got the impression a weight had been lifted from the master and that the noise in his head was the main culprit

Yeah I get that reasoning now, because we've had Missy. It's a valid interpretation now. But for 50 years there was nothing to suggest that the Master was transgender, that he might prefer to be a she. Even the hints of him being gay - before Missy they were nothing more than that: Hints at his sexuality, not gender identity. The situation around the Doctor's gender identity is the same as the Master's was just a couple of years ago. And like the Master he could change gender at any time.

Moffat has built up parts of the show's canon for five years to explain how the Doctor could just randomly change gender, the whole basis of the show is for the protagonist to change drastically every few years, and I don't think anyone is claiming that actresses are inherently lacking some acting ability that male actors have. So what exactly is the argument here?

[Kelimbror]

So what exactly is the argument here?

It's already been presented to you, but you just keep saying 'no I don't accept that'...so I don't know what you want man. An identity has been cultivated, whatever clues or hints you think have been built up that something else is different just aren't there. The Doctor as an identity, regardless of personality quirks, has been pretty consistent for decades. An actress could certainly deliver this identity, but it would be an act of mostly removing her gender from the role. Would that really be a great thing from a social standpoint? Idk. Seems insulting to me tbh. Sure, the Doctor is a woman actress but she is made to act like a male...that would be super. /sarcasm

[Immitis]

like i said id try it, and even above said if they got idris actress back id actually fully accept that, he loves the tardis more than anyone and that was the one time they got to be together.

i just dont think a female doctor fits his character, i have no problem with female actresses, my idol as an actor is tatianna maslany.

if a female doctor ever does get announced ill still watch and give it a chance

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id even love a spinoff about romana or the rani. or an alt universe female doctor, id love that.

[Dasffion]

I'd say tatianna for doctor but that would probably mean no more orphan black and that's not acceptable

[Deleted]

It's already been presented to you, but you just keep saying 'no I don't accept that'...so I don't know what you want man. An identity has been cultivated, whatever clues or hints you think have been built up that something else is different just aren't there. The Doctor as an identity, regardless of personality quirks, has been pretty consistent for decades. An actress could certainly deliver this identity, but it would be an act of mostly removing her gender from the role. Would that really be a great thing from a social standpoint? Idk. Seems insulting to me tbh. Sure, the Doctor is a woman actress but she is made to act like a male...that would be super. /sarcasm

The argument's been presented to me but, well at this point it's factually wrong. Hell Bent demonstrates quite clearly that a timelord can go many lives as one gender and then randomly just regenerate into another. Why do you keep ignoring that? Whatever your stance is on a female Doctor I think it is entirely disingenuous to claim that I've just imagined all the build up to it. You really think it is an accident that we got a male to female (and white to black) regeneration? And a comment about how this can happen randomly in a line of otherwise consistent regenerations?

Please, no really, please stop pretending that your objection here is in defence of women and transgender people. In claiming that a female doctor would be insensitive you're actually being pretty insensitive yourself, because your implying that the Doctor's consistent personality traits are the sole domain of men. To me the Doctor is many things: He's adventurous; incredibly smart and arrogant as a result; but also self-doubting; compassionate but also manipulative; he loves Earth and humans but is also alien in many ways; There is darkness inside him, but he always strives to be a good person, never cruel or cowardly. Those to me are the consistent traits of the Doctor - a person at war with himself who is always running. None of those are inherently male traits. So that is what I want man, I want to know what it is about the Doctor's personality which in your mind is inherently male.

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As for who could play a female Doctor I think Haley Atwell would be my first choice. I haven't seen Agent Carter, but in Captain America at least she nails smart, snarky and in charge.

[Elggur]

The argument's been presented to me but, well at this point it's factually wrong. Hell Bent demonstrates quite clearly that a timelord can go many lives as one gender and then randomly just regenerate into another. Why do you keep ignoring that? Whatever your stance is on a female Doctor I think it is entirely disingenuous to claim that I've just imagined all the build up to it. You really think it is an accident that we got a male to female (and white to black) regeneration? And a comment about how this can happen randomly in a line of otherwise consistent regenerations?

Please, no really, please stop pretending that your objection here is in defence of women and transgender people. In claiming that a female doctor would be insensitive you're actually being pretty insensitive yourself, because your implying that the Doctor's consistent personality traits are the sole domain of men. To me the Doctor is many things: He's adventurous; incredibly smart and arrogant as a result; but also self-doubting; compassionate but also manipulative; he loves Earth and humans but is also alien in many ways; There is darkness inside him, but he always strives to be a good person, never cruel or cowardly. Those to me are the consistent traits of the Doctor - a person at war with himself who is always running. None of those are inherently male traits. So that is what I want man, I want to know what it is about the Doctor's personality which in your mind is inherently male.

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As for who could play a female Doctor I think Haley Atwell would be my first choice. I haven't seen Agent Carter, but in Captain America at least she nails smart, snarky and in charge.

I guess the main thing imo wich stop the doctor is his biggest passion, wich is to visit the earth of different time, sure a timelord can change sex randomly, however what (to me) really stop de doctor from doing that is the fact that he keeps going back in history, many in place where a woman who would take the lead would be greatly frown upon (same thing for a black person sadly) wich is one of the main reason why he stays a white male .. sure I could be wrong, but let's say for example the general's case, if the general would come to earth in the 18th century, she'd be looked down in a heartbeat for her color AND for being a woman

[Gallahadd]

I'd say tatianna for doctor but that would probably mean no more orphan black and that's not acceptable

Myeh, both film 10 episodes and require A LOT of CGI. I reckon she could manage both.

That said, I think people would actually have an aneurysm if you cast not only a woman but an AMERICAN Woman to play Doctor Who...

Also, please no Hayley Atwell, Agent Carter is bad enough.

[Dasffion]

The argument's been presented to me but, well at this point it's factually wrong. Hell Bent demonstrates quite clearly that a timelord can go many lives as one gender and then randomly just regenerate into another. Why do you keep ignoring that? Whatever your stance is on a female Doctor I think it is entirely disingenuous to claim that I've just imagined all the build up to it. You really think it is an accident that we got a male to female (and white to black) regeneration? And a comment about how this can happen randomly in a line of otherwise consistent regenerations?

Please, no really, please stop pretending that your objection here is in defence of women and transgender people. In claiming that a female doctor would be insensitive you're actually being pretty insensitive yourself, because your implying that the Doctor's consistent personality traits are the sole domain of men. To me the Doctor is many things: He's adventurous; incredibly smart and arrogant as a result; but also self-doubting; compassionate but also manipulative; he loves Earth and humans but is also alien in many ways; There is darkness inside him, but he always strives to be a good person, never cruel or cowardly. Those to me are the consistent traits of the Doctor - a person at war with himself who is always running. None of those are inherently male traits. So that is what I want man, I want to know what it is about the Doctor's personality which in your mind is inherently male.

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As for who could play a female Doctor I think Haley Atwell would be my first choice. I haven't seen Agent Carter, but in Captain America at least she nails smart, snarky and in charge.

I don't think that Hell Bent demonstrates that a time lord can randomly change to a different gender. We don't know anything about the commander's personality.

[Deleted]

I don't think that Hell Bent demonstrates that a time lord can randomly change to a different gender. We don't know anything about the commander's personality.

True, but I think that that is looking at it a little too much from an in-universe perspective. Where Doctor Who happening in real life, then yes - what is true for the Time Lord General may not apply at all to the Doctor. But it's not real, it's a constructed narrative. So we've got to look at what narrative purpose it served to have a gender and racebent regeneration, and then specifically mention that Timelords can have odd-one-out regenerations. And to me the obvious answer is that it provides an answer for why the Doctor might regenerate into a woman after 13 male regenerations.

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Myeh, both film 10 episodes and require A LOT of CGI. I reckon she could manage both.

That said, I think people would actually have an aneurysm if you cast not only a woman but an AMERICAN Woman to play Doctor Who...

Also, please no Hayley Atwell, Agent Carter is bad enough.

Is she not good in Agent Carter?

[Anjerith]

True, but I think that that is looking at it a little too much from an in-universe perspective. Where Doctor Who happening in real life, then yes - what is true for the Time Lord General may not apply at all to the Doctor. But it's not real, it's a constructed narrative. So we've got to look at what narrative purpose it served to have a gender and racebent regeneration, and then specifically mention that Timelords can have odd-one-out regenerations. And to me the obvious answer is that it provides an answer for why the Doctor might regenerate into a woman after 13 male regenerations.

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Is she not good in Agent Carter?

Shes great in Agent Carter and has actually been in several of the Big Finish Doctor Who audio dramas. Also she is actually British so not sure what his issue with her really could be...
But Regardless, for the same reason she can no longer do the Audio Dramas, she won't be in Doctor Who; shes got too much stuff going on.

[Deleted]

I guess the main thing imo wich stop the doctor is his biggest passion, wich is to visit the earth of different time, sure a timelord can change sex randomly, however what (to me) really stop de doctor from doing that is the fact that he keeps going back in history, many in place where a woman who would take the lead would be greatly frown upon (same thing for a black person sadly) wich is one of the main reason why he stays a white male .. sure I could be wrong, but let's say for example the general's case, if the general would come to earth in the 18th century, she'd be looked down in a heartbeat for her color AND for being a woman

Well for starters that would depend on how much subconscious control the Doctor has over his regenerations. Clearly he has some, but most of it is as 10 says "a lottery." Is this a subconscious consideration that influences the regeneration process? We don't know, so Moffat could easily say "no, it's not."

And besides which if we're talking about consistent traits of the Doctor - when has he ever been conventional and by-the-book? I don't think the Doctor would ever be one to accept and accommodate people's prejudices. I mean he takes female companions everywhere and most notably he invites Martha to travel with him. Doesn't he literally tell her to just do as he does and walk around like she owns the place? Plus there have been plenty of badass women throughout history who took charge. Yes, sexism and racism where bigger problems back in the day but people where not wired to be unable to respect women or people of colour.

And hell, to me that spells story opportunity. How does the Doctor handle a situation where s/he faces prejudice? Admirably I would guess.

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Shes great in Agent Carter and has actually been in several of the Big Finish Doctor Who audio dramas. Also she is actually British so not sure what his issue with her really could be...
But Regardless, for the same reason she can no longer do the Audio Dramas, she won't be in Doctor Who; shes got too much stuff going on.

Does she? She has her own show but from what I hear it's on shaky ground. Will likely be cancelled within the next couple of years.

[Kelimbror]

The argument's been presented to me but, well at this point it's factually wrong. Hell Bent demonstrates quite clearly that a timelord can go many lives as one gender and then randomly just regenerate into another.

Ok, trying to be patient with you....but I'm done. This is bullshit. You take one event, with no context (as it was a quick second and done, move on), to apply across the entire landscape of the show which has decades of building up an identity of the main character, his race, and several species across galaxies. And because of this one moment, in Moffat's era no less, you think this irrevocably alters the show's lore and character identities to match how you feel the show should be.

Most egregious and lacking confirmation bias I've ever seen. There is no talking with you, as you are highly illogical.

[Deleted]

Ok, trying to be patient with you....but I'm done. This is bullshit. You take one event, with no context (as it was a quick second and done, move on), to apply across the entire landscape of the show which has decades of building up an identity of the main character, his race, and several species across galaxies. And because of this one moment, in Moffat's era no less, you think this irrevocably alters the show's lore and character identities to match how you feel the show should be.

Most egregious and lacking confirmation bias I've ever seen. There is no talking with you, as you are highly illogical.

It's not just one event though. The possibility of a female Doctor has been built up literally since the first minute of Moffat taking over. The regeneration in Hell Bent was just the latest. First we have 10 regenerating into 11, who thinks he might have regenerated into a girl. He's shocked but it's a possibility. Then we get mention of the Corsair who regenerates from male to female and visa versa many times. Then we get Missy herself, the first concrete onscreen example of a timelady who was once a time lord (no matter how much you want to Fanwank that she's secretly a different person). Then Missy outright brings up the possibility that the Doctor was once a girl (probably a lie, but the possibility is directly referenced nonetheless). And finally we have an on-screen race and gender bent regeneration and specific confirmation that regeneration has no set pattern in regards to gender. And that event absolutely has a context. Not within the narrative, but externally. It addresses one of the big questions regarding a female doctor - "why would the Doctor deviate from 13 male regenerations?" "Because regenerations have anomalies sometimes." - That is the context. We don't need to explore in depth the General's identity and personality, s/he is merely a tool here to open up that possibility.

Moffat has spent five years across two Doctors seeding the possibility here. And whatever other problems I might have with Moffat he is making an effort to build the possibility of a female Doctor as organically as possible into the narrative, in a way that doesn't contradict previously established lore. Nothing about the Doctor is inherently male. All the Doctor needs to be is a smart, time travelling alien with a thirst for adventure and a penchant for saving the universe. There are any number of women who could do brilliantly in that role.

[Kelimbror]

You can believe whatever you want, so in the sake of getting back to civility on my part I'll just agree to disagree. I would recommend that you not use determinate instigation like 'what are these reasons people keep saying exist?' like asking for some new thing to try and disprove. It's just tacky. You've been given several reasons, you don't agree with them. That's ok. But don't use it as a platform for challenging the obviously large amount of people who disagree with you.

In the end it doesn't really matter what we even want to argue, because the show will do whatever it wants yeah? We can only sit back and try and enjoy the ride together.

[Deleted]

You can believe whatever you want, so in the sake of getting back to civility on my part I'll just agree to disagree. I would recommend that you not use determinate instigation like 'what are these reasons people keep saying exist?' like asking for some new thing to try and disprove. It's just tacky. You've been given several reasons, you don't agree with them. That's ok. But don't use it as a platform for challenging the obviously large amount of people who disagree with you.

In the end it doesn't really matter what we even want to argue, because the show will do whatever it wants yeah? We can only sit back and try and enjoy the ride together.

Well we will indeed just have to agree to disagree. I just feel though that I've never gotten to the ultimate conclusion of your line of reasoning. I just want to know what you consider to be the core personality traits of the Doctor, that are carried across all his regenerations and then why those traits are male only? Because to me the Doctor only needs to be a smart, time travelling alien, with a love of humans, a thirst for adventure, a troubled soul and a penchant for saving the world. To me everything else is mutable.

[Fencers]

It's kinda silly how all the monsters/baddies in this show are incredibly slow moving and background soldiers usually stand around in the same room doing nothing.

Doctor Who reminds me of Dragon Ball Z in some ways- whole episodes are protagonists meeting a new SUPER THREAT, than standing around staring at bad guy(s) for 40 mins freaking out only to have it all end kinda anti-climatically.

There is a real lack of grit and ferocity to these BBC shows. I don't know if it is because they are made for children primarily or because violence is not quite as popular in the UK? I don't know but it bores the hell out of me.

[Deleted]

It's kinda silly how all the monsters/baddies in this show are incredibly slow moving and background soldiers usually stand around in the same room doing nothing.

Doctor Who reminds me of Dragon Ball Z in some ways- whole episodes are protagonists meeting a new SUPER THREAT, than standing around staring at bad guy(s) for 40 mins freaking out only to have it all end kinda anti-climatically.

There is a real lack of grit and ferocity to these BBC shows. I don't know if it is because they are made for children primarily or because violence is not quite as popular in the UK? I don't know but it bores the hell out of me.

Budget is a factor of course. But also the show is not meant to be an action show. The Doctor gets out of trouble through talking. That's his thing.

[Feredir]

Does she? She has her own show but from what I hear it's on shaky ground. Will likely be cancelled within the next couple of years.

That would technically be considered high praise for the program. Keep in mind its a mid-season, limited episode run. If it ran two more years it would more than likely be considered a successful run.