When do raids get puggable?

[Kindahuge]

Hi, I'm the kind of guy who wants to live in a multi-million dollar mansion and drive a new, untouched Mercedes every day, but I don't have time to go to school or get a ridiculously high paying job. When can I get all these things for free?

[Herecius]

Pretty much.. They will do anything to "show the content to casuals". Nerfs + welfare gear and it will become puggable at some point.. As much as we, raiders, hate that. Neroics will get nerfed too.. Casuals are already crying foul and threaten blizz to cancel their subs, even though heroics have nothing to do with "seeing the content". Probably next tier, or 2 tiers tops

Blizzard seems very steadfastedly strong about their 'be a better player if you want to experience content' stance.
This is a blue post from today concerning merely heroic dungeons - not raids, but just dungeons - that shows that Blizz is not backpedaling and giving in to this like you seem to think. It was made on a whiny QQ post about somebody saying 'Cancel your account, content is too hard!'

Players were conditioned at the end of Wrath of the Lich King to mow through Heroics at lightning speed. Not only were they too easy to begin with, by the time Dungeon Finder came out players greatly out-geared the majority of these dungeons.

The reality is that it makes sense for Heroics to be a true and necessary stepping stone into raiding. They are more difficult at the beginning of this expansion's lifespan than they were at the beginning of Lich King. We like it that way. We want you thinking and trying new approaches through trial and error in order to succeed, just as groups do while raiding.

As new tiers of gear are released and new raids open up, Heroics will naturally become easier, but that provides little good reason for trivializing them now. This is true even if some groups -- particularly pick-up groups -- lack the patience, will, or teamwork necessary to succeed.

We prefer that skill and character power provide the edge in Heroic dungeons, rather than supplying simple boss fights where mistakes are so easily forgivable.

Will it test you to play at your best and communicate effectively with your group? Certainly. Should Heroic dungeons be tuned down so failure is rarely a real possibility? That doesn't sound like interesting design to me, nor would it act as a good catalyst for compelling, strategic, and social gameplay.

[Okacz]

In my opinion there is at least 1 boss that is quite puggable, and i mean Magmaw. Easy mechanics, if you dont fail on parasites and chain+mangle combo you can easily do it. Experianced raid leader and team with 346-geared players should be enough.
And of course Azgalor is puggable if you count Baradin Hold as a raid. Pure faceroll.

[Arcangel14]

BWD is currently being PUG'd on Stormscale-EU, not all of it is being cleared but afaik 4 bosses were downed yesterday by a pug.

There's no way a random trade channel pug can do that. A group that is a combination of the best guilds is not considered a pug imo

[Heilige]

Halfus, Twin Dragons, Omnotron, Magmaw, Maloriak, Atramedes and Conclave. 7 fights that SHOULD definately puggable. Don't mean they are because well, most pugs are failtastic, but the simplicity of the encounters make them easily doable.

Halfus - Focus a dragon down and cleave the other one(s). Kill whelps, PROFIT you've won.
Twin - Collapse/spread, strafe a few yards here and there... so simple.
Omnotron - Don't smack their sheilds (unless you're a mage on Arcanotron), kill adds, PROFIT!
Magmaw - Kill adds.
Maloriak - Spread - Stack - AOE - Spread - Stack - AOE - Burn - Epic Loots.
Atramedes - Don't stand in the yellow frisbees.
Conclave - This one sounds alot more complicated then it is, our first kill I completely forgot to Time Warp like a baddie.

[Deleted]

Halfus, Twin Dragons, Omnotron, Magmaw, Maloriak, Atramedes and Conclave. 7 fights that SHOULD definately puggable. Don't mean they are because well, most pugs are failtastic, but the simplicity of the encounters make them easily doable.

Halfus - Focus a dragon down and cleave the other one(s). Kill whelps, PROFIT you've won.
Twin - Collapse/spread, strafe a few yards here and there... so simple.
Omnotron - Don't smack their sheilds (unless you're a mage on Arcanotron), kill adds, PROFIT!
Magmaw - Kill adds.
Maloriak - Spread - Stack - AOE - Spread - Stack - AOE - Burn - Epic Loots.
Atramedes - Don't stand in the yellow frisbees.
Conclave - This one sounds alot more complicated then it is, our first kill I completely forgot to Time Warp like a baddie.

Surprisingly 50% of people don't understand these simple mechanics. I don't get it.

[Arcangel14]

It will be nerfed.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but, probably not

[Deleted]

Pugged 3/12 so far, so answer: now.

EDIT: This is a /2 pug, using vent though.

[xile]

dont judge cata with WotLK everyone knows content was easy as shit in LK. i mean didnt all but HMLK fall in 2 weeks when heroics were available. do you see guilds progressing like that now? no even top 5 guilds in world only have 6/12 HMs. WotLK was made for baddies. Cata is made for everyone else

You are aware that Wotlk progression isn't much quicker than the current progression? /facepalm

[Arcangel14]

Surprisingly 50% of people don't understand these simple mechanics. I don't get it.

Your forgetting the part where healer's are oom 2 minutes into the fight. There's more to the bosses than that. Massive raid damage and tank damage sucks. You cant explain mechanics so simply and decide that its so easy. Yes, I've killed a few of those bosses, and no, it didnt take hours of wiping, but it's still not as easy as you describe it. Halfus for example requires different strats based on what drakes you get. Ill agree with Omni, its pretty easy, same with Conclave

[Kraven Moorehead]

When people get Vent, listen, and stop standing is fire.

[xile]

There's no way a random trade channel pug can do that. A group that is a combination of the best guilds is not considered a pug imo

U highly underestimate people and over estimate ur ability, pugs in WOTLK were killing the LK with several hardmodes towards the end. Hell there were premade pugs going 11/12 hms.

[Ardelia]

Naxx was a joke laugh-a-thon compared to its original version and the mechanics were so forgiving that even with half the raid dead you could easily easily complete the encounter without even coming close to enrage timers.

ToC was just as faceroll as Naxx was and was pugged with ease because the mechanics again were incredibly forgivable so even with a raid composed entirely from trade chat and GS alone, it was downed with realitive ease.

Why was icc puggable and by puggable i mean at least 6/12? Three words, Strength of Wrynn, LoL 30 percent, need i go on? If they left icc without the buff i doubt even 4/12 would have been pugged.

Ulduar not only being the best raid in the expansion, was the only raid where even out gearing it massively, you could still fail on hodir, greya (hm), mimiron, and yogg. It easily separated the men from the boys, men full cleared it, boys didn't get past kologarn.


but really wotlk reg modes, and im going to steal the term cause its really effective, reg modes were the spectator mode for content. Want to see how it all ends? Do it on reg mode, faceroll the content, get free loots and all you have to do is maintain a subscription while learning nothing about raiding.

4/12 without the buff being puggable? lol.. I pugged it plenty with alts clearing everything but LK without the buff. Its called use vent and get people to listen, not hard.

[Heilige]

Your forgetting the part where healer's are oom 2 minutes into the fight. There's more to the bosses than that. Massive raid damage and tank damage sucks. You cant explain mechanics so simply and decide that its so easy. Yes, I've killed a few of those bosses, and no, it didnt take hours of wiping, but it's still not as easy as you describe it. Halfus for example requires different strats based on what drakes you get. Ill agree with Omni, its pretty easy, same with Conclave

Really? We've done every combo so far that way. We just change which drake gets killed first.

Also if healers are oom in 2 minutes, they're doing it wrong. On Cho'gall, our healers are sitting at 80-85% mana if not higher when we go in to phase 2 - 2 healing it. The basic mechanics listed above will save your healers mana by, shockingly, NOT STANDING IN SHIT.

---------- Post added 2010-12-28 at 05:18 PM ----------

If anything, the puggable boss will be Halfus most of the time. The set up we got last night for him was Nether Scion, Slate, and Whelps. Killed the Netherscion, released the whelps, abd burned Halfus with a minute left on the time. Pure tank and spank. Granted, not all set ups for him will be that easy, but you get my point. However, the rest of the content won't get pugged by normal pugs. Bosses like Twilight Council and Maloriak will mess pugs up badly.

Ascendant Council, yeah don't see that being puggable. Maloriak if you get 1 reliable interrupter, is a complete joke. Bring out 9 adds at a time, burn them down. PROFIT.

[Arcangel14]

U highly underestimate people and over estimate ur ability, pugs in WOTLK were killing the LK with several hardmodes towards the end. Hell there were premade pugs going 11/12 hms.

You are highly underestimating Cata raids and highly overestimating everyone else's ability. This is not ICC with 30% buff where you can ignore mechanics. Sorry

[Neotokyo]

lets take baby steps shall we... lets get heroics puggable properly first before we think of raid pugs... Seriously.. At least 4/5 pug's atm fail... if you get in a decent one you are very very lucky...

[dubbz]

Really? We've done every combo so far that way. We just change which drake gets killed first.

Also if healers are oom in 2 minutes, they're doing it wrong. On Cho'gall, our healers are sitting at 80-85% mana if not higher when we go in to phase 2 - 2 healing it. The basic mechanics listed above will save your healers mana by, shockingly, NOT STANDING IN SHIT.

---------- Post added 2010-12-28 at 05:18 PM ----------



Ascendant Council, yeah don't see that being puggable. Maloriak if you get 1 reliable interrupter, is a complete joke. Bring out 9 adds at a time, burn them down. PROFIT.

Not always the healers fault that they are oom. But yes, as you said, not standing in shit helps. That goes for everybody in the raid though. Even the best healers will go oom playing their class perfectly if unneeded damage is shredding the raid because of butchered mechanics.

[Jazzhands]

Halfus, Twin Dragons, Omnotron, Magmaw, Maloriak, Atramedes and Conclave. 7 fights that SHOULD definately puggable. Don't mean they are because well, most pugs are failtastic, but the simplicity of the encounters make them easily doable.

Halfus - Focus a dragon down and cleave the other one(s). Kill whelps, PROFIT you've won.
Twin - Collapse/spread, strafe a few yards here and there... so simple.
Omnotron - Don't smack their sheilds (unless you're a mage on Arcanotron), kill adds, PROFIT!
Magmaw - Kill adds.
Maloriak - Spread - Stack - AOE - Spread - Stack - AOE - Burn - Epic Loots.
Atramedes - Don't stand in the yellow frisbees.
Conclave - This one sounds alot more complicated then it is, our first kill I completely forgot to Time Warp like a baddie.

Any fight can be simplified, but really, if you did just those things, you would wipe on nearly every fight. You left out a lot of mechanics that will get you killed, and pretty much covered only half of each listed fight. And yeah, pugs don't understand the simple concepts you did post.

[xile]

Hi, I'm the kind of guy who wants to live in a multi-million dollar mansion and drive a new, untouched Mercedes every day, but I don't have time to go to school or get a ridiculously high paying job. When can I get all these things for free?

The average raiding time in most servers i've seen or been in is something like 3/4 days a week 3/4 hours a day. That's anywhere from 9 to 16 hours a week, not to mention any other thing you want to do in the game which can easily double that time. I know it's hard to believe but some of us honestly don't have a full 24 hours to give up to a game each week in the name of progression, i'm not pro, ur not either. It's unrealistic for people who are going to school, having a job, and maintaining a social life to give up a whole day in hours to a game. Don't complain that people have other priorities than you, especially seeing how not everyone can fit in that many hours to play a week. Point being i shouldn't have to commit as many hours as i work in a week to a game to see profit, why you have a problem with that i have no clue. I play this game for fun, not for a pay check.

[Arcangel14]

Really? We've done every combo so far that way. We just change which drake gets killed first.

Also if healers are oom in 2 minutes, they're doing it wrong. On Cho'gall, our healers are sitting at 80-85% mana if not higher when we go in to phase 2 - 2 healing it. The basic mechanics listed above will save your healers mana by, shockingly, NOT STANDING IN SHIT.

---------- Post added 2010-12-28 at 05:18 PM ----------



Ascendant Council, yeah don't see that being puggable. Maloriak if you get 1 reliable interrupter, is a complete joke. Bring out 9 adds at a time, burn them down. PROFIT.

Again, I'm not talking about personal experience. But the first few attempts of bosses, healers WERE going oom, because they had no idea what to expect. Now, there is a difference between a raider and a trade chat pug. The trade chat pug wont recognize and change/adapt, whereas the raider will. You can say stuff is easy because, well, for your guild it IS. Thats not the case for trade chat pugs. Im just putting into perspective because clearly you arent. You can't say content is easy/puggable just because your guild is rolling through normal modes with ease.