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  1. #1

    Combat rogue & fast off-hand weapons

    Quote from the "Upcoming Class Changes" post on the front page:
    Rogue (Forums / Cataclysm Talent Calculator / Beta Skills/Talents)
    We want to make it clear that Combat is intended to use fast off-hand weapons. We also want to polish Revealing Strike a bit.
    Using Justice Points, this is what we can buy:
    • Dawnblaze Blade: Off-hand sword, speed 2.60
    • Throat Slasher: Off-hand dagger, speed 1.40
    • Wind Slicer: Off-hand axe, speed 2.60

    The dagger is the only fast weapon in the list. I'm getting crossed signals. That, or there's something I don't understand...

    Your thoughts?
    Last edited by Cappinator; 2010-12-28 at 06:54 AM. Reason: Typo

  2. #2
    The Patient Windborne Sword's Avatar
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    Rogues have always wanted fast off-hands in PvE specs, minus HaT which was pointlessly stupid and was against all things that made subtlety, which is daggers are your friend, daggers that are fish are your best friends.
    May the raging winds destroy my foes, and let its soothing breeze ease the pain of my friends!


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  3. #3
    I have no problem wielding a dagger in my off hand, I actually bought the Throat Slasher (cool name by the way ). It just seems strange that they went through all the Deadly Poison changes that they did, only to bring 2 slow and only 1 fast off-hand weapon in that list.

    I can understand they want to share these off-hands with hunters, but afaik hunters mostly use these melee weapons for the stats, not for the dps/speed. So why not just kill two birds with one stone and make these agility-based off-handers fast weapons?

    I don't play a hunter, so maybe I'm wrong in my statement about that. If so, feel free to tell me (in a civilized manner )

  4. #4
    Turning all Agility OH weapons into fast ones conflicts with Enhancers. AFAIK, they want slow OH weapons.

  5. #5
    Just a thought, but I am curious as to why the OH needs to be fast for 2 reasons. 1: I am at 30% change for an Extra OH swing, so If 1/3 hits I get an Extra hit, wouldn't I want a slow OH? 2: Have you looked through the Rogue gear and seen the Haste? It's a wee bit over-kill, yes, we could reforge it, but wouldn't you rather reforge all the Crit instead?

    YES I am aware that EJ and Blizzard and others are saying "Fast OH, Fast OH, Fast OH." But I want to know specifically *Why* do we want a fast OH?
    O_o

  6. #6
    Field Marshal stahlhammer89's Avatar
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    I Concur, If they want combat to use fast off-hands there needs to be more non daggers available.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cappinator View Post
    I don't play a hunter, so maybe I'm wrong in my statement about that. If so, feel free to tell me (in a civilized manner )
    Hunters really shouldn't be using one handed weapons now.
    Last edited by stahlhammer89; 2010-12-28 at 07:01 AM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Nidd View Post
    Turning all Agility OH weapons into fast ones conflicts with Enhancers. AFAIK, they want slow OH weapons.
    That might make sense for the Axe, but afaik Shamans can't use swords.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by DexterityRogueFeathermoon View Post
    *Why* do we want a fast OH?
    Combat Potency, maybe?
    Quote Originally Posted by Cappinator View Post
    That might make sense for the Axe, but afaik Shamans can't use swords.
    Oh, right, missed that one.

    Thinking about that one, it doesn't make any sense at all...

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by DexterityRogueFeathermoon View Post
    YES I am aware that EJ and Blizzard and others are saying "Fast OH, Fast OH, Fast OH." But I want to know specifically *Why* do we want a fast OH?
    Deadly poison application and its effect at 5 stacks and combat potency.
    Last edited by Kodoku; 2010-12-28 at 07:17 AM.

  10. #10
    I think Blizzard is moving away from the two-swords/maces/fists aesthetic that Rogue's had going for them really, every single fast offhand with agility is a dagger now. Hell, a main gauche (sound familiar?) is a parrying dagger held in the off hand if you look up the term. Sucks for people who preferred offhanding a sword because it looks better to them, but it's Blizzard's decision.

    Basically,
    1) Combat Rogues are intended to use fast offhands.

    2) Weapons itemized as fast offhands for Combat Rogues (all Rogues really) are all daggers. This is probably intended by Blizzard as the aesthetic direction of the Rogue class.
    Last edited by Mizzet; 2010-12-28 at 07:13 AM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Kodoku View Post
    Deadly poison application and it's effect at 5 stacks and combat potency.
    pretty much this. also mastery procs = more dp and combat potency procs = more energy = more sinister strikes = more mastery procs.

    the design is not so bad, just OH attacks hit as a wet noodle even with ambidexterity. a better way to handle it was that OH attacks would proc MH attacks imho, but blizzard seems sticking with the current one. apart from raising the proc %, i don't see anything else coming (again, GC said that coombat mastery design is fine, not like unholy DK or retri pala).

    edit: as for OH weapons, i am fine with using daggers. this means less drops wasted into useless weapons and less competition on them since we are the only ones that want daggers.

  12. #12
    Dreadlord DerSenf's Avatar
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    So... whats your problem with using a dagger? Do you miss Hack'n'Slash so much?

  13. #13
    What about normalization of the offhand damage from mastery based on it's speed?
    Updated (9/5/11)
    Current soloed content on rogue (Spec - Combat):
    Classic -- ZG (prior 4.0.1), MC, AQ20 (prior 4.0.3), AQ40 - Skeram, Sartura (prior 4.0.3), Bug Trio, Fankriss, Huhuran (4.0.6)
    TBC -- KZ (prior 4.0.3), ZA, SSC - Hydross, Lurker, Leotheras, Karathress, Morogrim, TK - Al'ar, Void Reaver, Solarian (4.0.6), Kael'thas (4.2.2), Magtheridon, Kazzak, CoT: MH - Azgalor (with trash) (4.0.6)

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by DexterityRogueFeathermoon View Post
    Just a thought, but I am curious as to why the OH needs to be fast for 2 reasons. 1: I am at 30% change for an Extra OH swing, so If 1/3 hits I get an Extra hit, wouldn't I want a slow OH? 2: Have you looked through the Rogue gear and seen the Haste? It's a wee bit over-kill, yes, we could reforge it, but wouldn't you rather reforge all the Crit instead?

    YES I am aware that EJ and Blizzard and others are saying "Fast OH, Fast OH, Fast OH." But I want to know specifically *Why* do we want a fast OH?
    We want slow MH because all our specials are based off its damage. So the higher our damage on MH is, the higher our Sinister Strikes and the likes will do damage. Slow weapons have higher damage than fast weapons.

    Before the Talent changes in 4.0.x, Hack and Slash gave us a chance to get extra MH attacks in when we attack with our OH Axe or Sword. So a fast OH helped in this regard. Also, our off-hand attacks gave us more energy back (Combat Potency as mentioned by another poster), as well as stack up our deadly poison faster. When Blizz noticed rogues started using weapon swap macros to swap out slow weapons with fast weapons, just to be able to stack that poison, they changed the mechanics of Deadly Poison so that any stacks above 5 would refresh the timer on it, as well as proc our MH poison.

    All of this screamed fast OH.

    As far as I know, our specials damage is still based off our MH, so we need a slow MH weapon. Deadly Poison still works as before, so we need a fast OH weapon. Except now our mastery gives our MH attacks a chance to proc additional OH attacks. This is a 180° turn on the Hack and Slash mechanics.

    ---------- Post added 2010-12-28 at 08:20 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by DerSenf View Post
    So... whats your problem with using a dagger? Do you miss Hack'n'Slash so much?
    Allow me to quote myself
    I have no problem wielding a dagger in my off hand, I actually bought the Throat Slasher (cool name by the way ).
    Last edited by Cappinator; 2010-12-28 at 07:22 AM.

  15. #15
    If the dagger is the only weapon on the list you buy the dagger. Why does it matter what weapon your offhand is? It doesn't make sense for them to make a whole bunch of fast offhand agility weapons that aren't daggers because Rogues are pretty much the only class that uses them. There's no need to muddle up loot tables by having fast offhand swords for one spec of one class, then fast offhand daggers for one spec of the same class and on top of that create a multitude of other offhand weapons in order to itemize for the other classes that dual wield.

  16. #16
    WEAPON SPECIALIZATIONS ARE NO LONGER IN THE GAME.

    Please make a note of it.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Paneele View Post
    If the dagger is the only weapon on the list you buy the dagger. Why does it matter what weapon your offhand is? It doesn't make sense for them to make a whole bunch of fast offhand agility weapons that aren't daggers because Rogues are pretty much the only class that uses them. There's no need to muddle up loot tables by having fast offhand swords for one spec of one class, then fast offhand daggers for one spec of the same class and on top of that create a multitude of other offhand weapons in order to itemize for the other classes that dual wield.
    I agree with not mucking up loot tables, but a slow OH sword makes absolutely no sense. Also, for that very reason.

    Since rogues and hunters are the only agility-based classes that can use off-hand swords, and the hunters dps with their ranged weapon and only pick up these melee weapons for the stats, why not just make it a fast sword then?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Cappinator View Post
    Since rogues and hunters are the only agility-based classes that can use off-hand swords, and the hunters dps with their ranged weapon and only pick up these melee weapons for the stats, why not just make it a fast sword then?
    I would think it's because assasi rogues need two daggers to perform a mutilate, and combat rogues don't have a requirment for performning a sinister strike. By only dropping fast daggers, they have given all rogues the chance to gain an offhand.
    Honey, that sore on your lips tells me that you have been hanging out with the deathknights again.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Cappinator View Post
    I agree with not mucking up loot tables, but a slow OH sword makes absolutely no sense. Also, for that very reason.

    Since rogues and hunters are the only agility-based classes that can use off-hand swords, and the hunters dps with their ranged weapon and only pick up these melee weapons for the stats, why not just make it a fast sword then?
    The Dawnblaze Blade is a Str weapon, meant for Frost dks and SMF warriors.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Krimshaw View Post
    The Dawnblaze Blade is a Str weapon, meant for Frost dks and SMF warriors.
    You're right... my bad.

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