Fear immune remove from Berserk?

[Televators]

Feral is so far ahead of every other class/spec in PvP right now it's laughable. They are indefensible right how. OP was way off about tanking classes and fear and has been corrected by several people. Arguing against this very necessary nerf makes you look like a biased tool.

[Shamygandof]

Fear has diminshing returns just like every other cc plus it can be dispelled, so still no sympathy needed. It just means ferals will have to actually think about their comps rather than being able to fit in any comp because they are darn near immune to any form of cc and every snare in the game. And yes, they will actually have down time now. A feral zerg has been ridiculous up until these changes.

[Deleted]

Is Fear really that big of an issue in PvE? Considering all healers can dispel magic now, why does it matter...?

Considering a lot of healers refuse to even spec into dispel nor use it even if they had it for that matter, it is. But that won't happen in raids so there you're safe.

[Varabently]

What effects this kind of change would do on PvE tanking?

While all other tanks have their tools to remove Fear?

War: Bers. Rage / Pal: Bubble / DK: Lichborne

Does this change make Bears useless when compared others? I know it doesnt, but i want to hear your feelings.

When is it ok for a pally tank to bubble?

[rockmannx]

I like how people usually say "lol you can't fear a feral druid" but Fear is actually a HUGE pain in the ass for Ferals in arena. Totally removing the immunity from Berserk is probably going to be overkill.


---------- Post added 2010-12-29 at 01:50 AM ----------



That's not the point. Ferals are probably more susceptible to Fear than any other class, even with Berserk.

You can still immune to polymorphs and shift out of roots and snares. That has always been a HUGE advantage for druids. The fact they gave ferals a snare in Wrath was just icing the cake.

Ferals, and all druids for that matter, do not need any more ways to break and immune themselves to CC. Especially when they bring the only CC in the game that has one way out of it: trinket.

[rabbimojo]

[...]I'm no feral fan at all (I stated many times they were OP since patch 4.0), but do they really have conclusive independent data sets to justify both changes?

To be perfectly honest, I'd rather they sort out feral bleeds as they say they will then at LEAST make it so ferals are affected as badly as all other melee by a weapon disarm (i.e. unable to attack), but leave the Fear immunity alone. It's existed independently in the game for a long time. Why roll up changes to it with other changes? I'd be really fascinated to see the data or even decent anecdotal evidence for the need of the change to Berserk Fear immunity, preferably independently of feral bleed damage.

It would probably be safest to handle the nerfs independently, but I don't know that it's important. The two are already relatively separate problems, though both relate to the typical melee vs. range issue:
1) Bleeds - Problem because it takes so little relative uptime to get off heavy damage (this is similar to the old ret pally stam reduction in that it's effectively reducing the HP the enemy has - there's so little chance to escape it)
2) Melee uptime - feral have traditionally been one of the more difficult specs to peel, meaning their uptime ratio is out of whack as well

From GC's post, feral damage isn't going to go down any, it's just going to require somewhat higher uptime. As a result, the high uptime is also a problem, and so it will need to be adjusted.

As an aside, I also think this has something to do with priest PVP performance. The inability for priests to fear ferals away makes ferals disproportionately stronger vs. priests. Add in that more of the damage is shifting to physical (which means the damage will be adjusted to assume PvE armor levels, which in turn means more damage vs. priests even with IF up) and it could be a significant hurdle to their attempts to bring priest PvP up.

Just a thought.

[Deleted]

...Especially when they bring the only CC in the game that has one way out of it: trinket.

Uh, what CC is that?

[Balduvian]

Coming from someone who can get feared, polymorphed, hexed, cycloned, etc etc, you gets no sympathy.

*cough* Hibernate *cough*

Let's sum it up:

- Feral Druids are immume to Polymorph and Hex, the 2 least used CC's ingame.
- Feral Druids are far from slow/root/snare immume. Classes who can spam these abilities (most of them can) are a pain to Feral Druids almost as much as they are to other classes. There's no difference in being slowed for 10 seconds or being slowed for 2 seconds 5 times in a row. (Except for taking some more global CD's, mana for your enemy, but the time being CC'd remains almost equal, or perhaps just a tiny bit lower)
- Feral Druids can be Hibernated by Druids and Scared by Hunters. These forms of CC are usually avoidable, but far from always. A Resto Druid will eventually always catch you with a Hibernate. Hunters will eventually always catch you with a Scare Beast. Other Ferals will ALWAYS catch you with a Hibernate as they will be instant most of the time.
- Ferals are more susceptible to Fear than any other classes. Their runspeed is faster than any other class, and therefor the Fear will get you even further away from the Warlock as other classes. You can be immume to it for 20 sec every 3 minutes, atleast that's a plus.

On a sidenote: While we're CC'd, our only form of damage is bleeds. If those bleeds and our immunity to Fear get nerfed both at once, that will hit as a truck.

[bashastick]

Berserk, right now, is 15s (20s glyphed) of fear immunity, with a fear break, on a freaking 3 min cd. After the 15/20s are up, we are no longer immune to fears. During the cd time, you still can be fear locked 3-4 times.
Classes which rely on fears to control have tools to counter berserk. Locks use deathcoil, pet stun (demo), shadowburn stun (destro), teleport away, get their partner to stun, root, sleep etc which will remove precious seconds from berserk's effect. Spriests use the supremely annoying psychic horror which totally gimps the damage of cp generating hits and auto attacks, not to mention being able to disperse to negate much of the burst during berserk's duration.
As it is right now, fear immunity from berserk is excellent but is anything but OP. As detailed above, classes which are reliant on fear for much of their cc do have ways of keeping a feral off themselves during the duration of berserk.

And to those concerns about the implications for bear tanking, from the wording on the blue post, they seem to be intent on removing fear immunity from berserk. The fear break should still be present.

[Swaggah]

Druids got instant undispellable CC, ranged interrupts, gap closers, sprint, can remove snares/slow
I don't think fear pvp speaking will be an overkill. At all.

And from readin some of the other statements here, the only valid comments with good arguements goes in favor of not being to much of a big deal in regards of pve.
This nerf will most likely happen


Edit: On post above, so you're saying players has to blow every CD they have to stay alive first zerg? Please, get over 2k rating in arena in any other bracket then 5's before talking BS

[Deleted]

but looking at the patchnotes I really feel like it's going to be overkill.

Stop misunderstanding the blogs. They arent patch notes, they are feedback they are giving to the masses. Nothing is final yet. Nothing is tweaked yet. All they said it that it MIGHT get removed and that feral bleed damage will be scaled down somehow.

[Swaggah]

Polymorph and Hex, the 2 least used CC's ingame.
.

I dont even...


You do know there is something called rated arena and not only skirmish/war games?

[Shamygandof]

On a sidenote: While we're CC'd, our only form of damage is bleeds. If those bleeds and our immunity to Fear get nerfed both at once, that will hit as a truck.

When a rogue is feared, how do they do damage? When a warrior is feared, how do they do damage? Unless you are a dot class, you shouldn't have that kind power in a dot/bleed. Throw on top of that bleeds can't be dispelled like dots can. Any crying from ferals really just looks like pathetic qq that they aren't gonna be op anymore. Now they'll be closer to being inline with other melee classes.

[Balduvian]

Stop misunderstanding the blogs. They arent patch notes, they are feedback they are giving to the masses. Nothing is final yet. Nothing is tweaked yet. All they said it that it MIGHT get removed and that feral bleed damage will be scaled down somehow.

Fine, I used the wrong word, nothing changes though. Here's a cookie.

I dont even...


You do know there is something called rated arena and not only skirmish/war games?

I'm not saying Polymorph and Hex aren't getting used often. I'm just saying that there are more Fears, Cyclones, Stuns, Snares and Slows getting thrown around than those 2.

When a rogue is feared, how do they do damage? When a warrior is feared, how do they do damage? Unless you are a dot class, you shouldn't have that kind power in a dot/bleed. Throw on top of that bleeds can't be dispelled like dots can. Any crying from ferals really just looks like pathetic qq that they aren't gonna be op anymore. Now they'll be closer to being inline with other melee classes.

The fact that Rogues and Warriors actually deal alot more physical damage compared to Feral Druids is where the problem lies. A Rogue will deal good damage against a Lock when it's no longer feared. A Warrior will deal insane damage against a Lock when it's no longer feared (lol @ warrior getting feared, now THOSE guys are practically fear immume, not Ferals.) A Feral Druid will do pathetic damage once they get on the lock again, as they got to get up their bleeds over and over again between a Fear lockout, and once they're up, you'll get a second Fear lockout, and so on.


Anyway: I agree Ferals need nerfs. But hitting 2 of our essential abilities at once is going to hurt. And I don't exactly trust Blizzard in buffing our physical damage either.

[Shamygandof]

The reason you are seeing so many more cyclones, stuns, snares than polymorphs and hexes is because YOU ARE A FERAL DRUID!!! They said they would buff feral druids attacks. Also, they said they are aware of warriors ridiculous offensive capability too. Its funny how you keep crying about one class with the ability to actually cc you.

[Balduvian]

The reason you are seeing so many more cyclones, stuns, snares than polymorphs and hexes is because YOU ARE A FERAL DRUID!!! They said they would buff feral druids attacks. Also, they said they are aware of warriors ridiculous offensive capability too. Its funny how you keep crying about one class with the ability to actually cc you.

Actually the reason why I see more Fears/Cyclones/Stuns is because there are alot more Warlocks, Priests and Druids then there are Mages, and every class seem to have a stun or sometimes even several nowadays.

Also, I might not take these Polymorphs myself, but I do see it happen on other targets such as my arena partner(s) and on randoms in BG.

Fear/Cyclone/Stuns/Snares/Slows happen alot more than Polymorph, wether you're a Druid or not.

Also, I'm not crying about Warlocks, and I didn't QQ about them at all. You might want to learn to read. Also, Warlocks are far from the only class who can actually CC us. I've explained that before, cba to do it again.

[Theonen]

It may not be the end of the world, but Haspekoo has a point... Why would they remove OUR fear immunity while leaving it available for warriors? I regularly use berserk to trivialize fears at certain points of boss fights. If they separate berserk from the fear immunity, but still leave it available to us in some diminished form, I would be completely OK with it, but there's no reason to take fear immunity away from bears when they aren't removing the mechanic entirely. I feel this is yet another over reaction to the performance of ferals in PVP. We are having bleeds nerfed AND fear immunity removed entirely? That's a bit much. OK, bleeds are crazy good in PVP, I get that. Couldn't it just be as simple as a major glyph or even just a base mechanic where berserk grants immunity to fear for 5 seconds upon activation rather than the duration of berserk? UGH!

Edit: Also, if the intent was to say "we are removing fear immunity from all classes but it since it can be dispelled, don't worry!" then that's fine. But that's not the case. It IS important to note that the official post said these are not final changes, so threads like this (and on Blizzard's official forums) may yet affect the final outcome (yeah, right!)

Because Blizzard said they think ferals are too hard to control (with shapeshifting roots, polymorph immunity and all that) and I actually agree with that. I have a hard time trying to control a feral as a DK, might be a l2p issue to a certain degree but I think it's hard with 1 minute cooldown on gnaw and 2 chains of ice per 10 seconds (without haste regen runes etc, I know) + blood tap and a couple of death runes but those wont last forever. I even get less chains than that per 10 second after those 2, because runes only start to refresh after the other one in a couple is refreshed.

[rockmannx]

Uh, what CC is that?

Cyclone. Makes the target immune to everything. Can't dispel it, no class abilities to break it, the only way out is via trinket use. You can't even bubble while in it.

---------- Post added 2010-12-29 at 02:24 AM ----------

Fine, I used the wrong word, nothing changes though. Here's a cookie.



I'm not saying Polymorph and Hex aren't getting used often. I'm just saying that there are more Fears, Cyclones, Stuns, Snares and Slows getting thrown around than those 2.



(lol @ warrior getting feared, now THOSE guys are practically fear immume, not Ferals.)

Well this tells me you don't know much about the class you're whining about. A 10 second duration, 30 second CD is perma fear immune? Really?

You'd have a point 3 years ago, when a warrior could Zerk rage -> Death Wish -> Zerk Rage, back-to-back-to-back, and have 40 seconds of fear immunity.

Good Warlocks will wait until zerk rage is baited (either by another class, ala Rogues sap) or will only fear to get the damn ability on CD to lineup a future CC cycle.

Kinda like how good Mages don't bother trying to polymorph Druids....but nah, Druids are totally boned by CC like Warriors are. Yeah, you just keep on whining.

[Bakis]

What effects this kind of change would do on PvE tanking?

While all other tanks have their tools to remove Fear?

War: Bers. Rage / Pal: Bubble / DK: Lichborne

Does this change make Bears useless when compared others? I know it doesnt, but i want to hear your feelings.

Bubble? ok...
Anyway, there are extremly few encounters (5mans as far as I can remember +Queen) when there is a fear. Those fears are on the entire group.
If you lose threat during a groupfear cos of some dots, then you are a poor tank or the dps with damage over time didnt manage their threat properly.

Lets face it, beserk fear immunity is an old remnant that got no valid existance in PvE in todays WoW.
However its extremly usedfull in PvP, hence the nerf so druids arent immune against 95% of the stuff some random oponent can throw at them.

[Yeran]

Bear and cat berserk work different already, they could always say only the bear berserk grants fear immunity.