Good thing were getting buffed.

[holyrack]

pwnt. imo anyways....

lol i mean you really cant say much about it, been that way since vanilla, xcept i remeber only palas being brought into raids for their buffs.

[Agathon]

the 3% dmg buff will not hold ret in there when they up arcanes dmg. also its at best 500dps for your uh dks, mutilate rogues or whatever huntards. the rest gets less of a dps gain from it. there is also the problem of scaling. yes, we are scaling good with str and wdps, but i dont think its on par with dks, rogues or warlocks. no second stat is really doing it for us. i think its a failed design when a tankhelm can atleast be considered because of 60 more str.
If i was my gm i had long ago benched me or told me to reroll unholy....but i guess its convenient for him to keep me around as a paladin because i am also such an awesome tank :P (and prot is in a good place)

too many unknown parts in the equation. will cs cd be reduced? is another ability granting hopo with a 100% chance? what will be the chance of the new hol? will mastery be so good that its ep value stomps crit and haste? will zealotry be fixed? will every gear choice you made till then be wrong?
not a good time to be ret - as usual :P

[DaGhostDS]

You realize our class is currently so broken that BiS is PvP gear?

with a tank helm..

true, so let me correct myself, ret should fit these roles, and what i meant by doesn't look any different, Hunters/locks and rogues top of the meters before ret pallies get BiS.

ret should be fitting that role with a competitive dps

wow.joystiq.com/2007/03/01/blue-notes-pallies-and-shaman-are-not-for-that-much-dps/

Thre ya go.

wow thanks for that blue post.. from 2007..

[Grimbold21]

If those 2 moved on to the new mmo, you can alrdy predict what kind of "balance" there will be.

[macke]

this look no different then the last 6 years. Read this next part carefully

A CLASS DOESN'T NEED TO BE TOP DPS TO BE IMPORTANT, ret fits that role where they can be the most important part of a raid if the person playing ret uses all their cooldowns effectivly.

What does Ret bring? A 8 Second sacrifice? LoH?

I've even been asked to spec Holy becuse more then 1 Ret is useless.

[Talen]

Interrupts buffs and hands are 100% useless..

No, but if they're the only or main reason a Retadin is seen as being of value, then the Ret is eminently replaceable and in some ways, a liability.

Support specs simply don't work in this game.

If the support is needed....its better to bring along a full time healer instead.
If the support isn't needed...its better to bring along a higher DPS class instead.

The game simply isn't built around the idea of a support class.

Rets need to be equal to other melee DPS in terms of their DPS output. They need to be able to stand on their own two feet. The support they bring should be (in most cases) a bonus....nice to have, but not essential. The ability to toss off a quick heal should not be seen as a license to structure the class around a noticeably lower DPS because their raid utility makes up for it.

EJL

[Typhron]

If those 2 moved on to the new mmo, you can alrdy predict what kind of "balance" there will be.

Tigole did and is, although he still has emeratus status with WoW. Kalgan never left the position he was in, and Jayde is still feeding him BS. Despite what Neinniera would like to believe, we're still playing the same game we were back in 2007. More since Cata has been reported to be a "return to the past" in terms of game design.

Really, bashing Tigole, Furor, Kalgan and Pardo probably comes off as being done to death. I'd bet it'd stop if they'd quit doing the same crap all the time.

Mar 1st 2007
There ya go.

The current goal is that all dps are equally balanced, there shouldn't be anything like: Class X does less dps because he brings more buffs! They have stopped that since ages. Also, the first link is kinda stupid. If warriors are the best dps at the moment, you can expect the top 20 to be filled with warriors.

They still apply the Hybrid tax for whatever excuse they can muster, however. Really damned deplorable. Especially when it's arbitrary, such as with warriors and paladins (Retribution and (Paladin) Protection isn't tuned for Arena because Holy is good. Warriors have three viable specs for it, however).

[Mem]

Logical answer is logical.

If you want to dps, play a pure. Looking at that link you provided, it seems Hunter or Warlock is the way to go atm.

If you still want a plate-wearing, two-hand wielder feel...go DK.

If you're playing a paladin, tank or heal and be happy that blizzard let's you have a free lvl 55 that can do more dps.


Have a nice vacation.
~ Fiddlesnarf

[zcks]

Logical answer is logical.

If you want to dps, play a pure. Looking at that link you provided, it seems Hunter or Warlock is the way to go atm.

If you still want a plate-wearing, two-hand wielder feel...go DK.



If you're playing a paladin, tank or heal and be happy that blizzard let's you have a free lvl 55 that can do more dps.

This complete negates what they have said about wanting all specs to fill the role they spec for.

Its not that we want to be top dps, we just want to be at a respectable level without complete dependence on stupid mechanics like overabundance of RNG.

Also if you truly feel that a person should have to go to a complete different class because their spec should not be in a decent state then I am sorry for you because it must smell horrible all the time with your head that far up your ass.

[xile]

wow.joystiq.com/2007/03/01/blue-notes-pallies-and-shaman-are-not-for-that-much-dps/

Thre ya go.

A blue post from almost 4 years ago, that DOESN'T state what i asked for. You stated that blizzard said they hate paladins and hybrids. I see nowhere in that post anyone saying, I hate paladins and hybrids.

---------- Post added 2011-01-01 at 11:15 PM ----------

And they also said that hybrid tax won't be noticable in 99% of the cases.
The reason we are the lowest has nothing to do with balancing goals, hybrid tax or anything else.. It's just failing mechanics and numbers

This^^ people tried to use the hybrid tax when they were talking about the end of icc 25 point being the classes weren't balanced. Fire mages were destroying charts yes but so were a hybrid class, warriors. People shouldn't confuse hybrid tax with imbalances. The difference between playing a pure and hybrid is realistically only a small amount of dps. No one in this day and age is going to be unhappy over a 1k dps difference in BiS gear and if you are then people are too nitpicky.

[Cryblood]

5 ret pallies enter a bar, the bartender says "Oh man you guys are terrible healers, its like your trying to do dmg"

ok that was pretty bad, but yah having more than one ret in your raid is just awful, and even than its still pretty bad.

[belfpala]

Logical answer is logical.

If you want to dps, play a pure. Looking at that link you provided, it seems Hunter or Warlock is the way to go atm.

If you still want a plate-wearing, two-hand wielder feel...go DK.

If you're playing a paladin, tank or heal and be happy that blizzard let's you have a free lvl 55 that can do more dps.

lol.

FYI: All plate wearers are hybrids.

I'm not a FOTM reroller, never have been, and not going to start now. I'd like it if my class was more competitive. I don't feel the need to top every meter, just get me to a place where my group doesn't laugh at me behind my back.

[dwarven]

The RNG component of Ret is getting reduced I think with the new mastery.

[Fierae]

Mostly agree, there's not many ferals on that list either, AND they were talking about even FURTHER nerfing our damage, and that's even after the first nerf of rake mastery bonus.

[goozen]

Mostly agree, there's not many ferals on that list either, AND they were talking about even FURTHER nerfing our damage, and that's even after the first nerf of rake mastery bonus.

Not to mention there is only 1 Ele shammy there :/
Also there is no such thing really as hybrid, DPS specs cannot heal anymore so really there should be no tax.

[Aramore]

Mostly agree, there's not many ferals on that list either, AND they were talking about even FURTHER nerfing our damage, and that's even after the first nerf of rake mastery bonus.

Actually if you'll read what Ghostcrawler said properly he said that in PVP bleeds are doing too much damage considering they're not dispellable and so he said he wanted some of that damage put back into the other attacks, if they do it properly you won't see a DPS loss just weaker bleeds and stronger whites and specials.

[Fiddlesnarf]

Too much QQ, flaming, and trolling in here. I'm not going to lock this now, but I will if it gets more out of hand.

[Beckwin]

What does Ret bring? A 8 Second sacrifice? LoH?

I've even been asked to spec Holy becuse more then 1 Ret is useless.

You answered your own question. Having 2 Ret is pointless. Ret has more to offer a raid than an Arcane Mage however.
Holy Wrath AoE Stun
Turn Evil (Granted, every spec can make use of Turn Evil, I would rather I use a glyph for it on say...Nefarion adds, instead of a Holy/Prot.)
Repentance
Threat Modifier/Physical Damage Protection/Damage Reduction(Transfer)
Lay on Hands
Interrupt
On top of this, Ret has a LOT of survivability on its own for fights like...3rd phase Ascendant Council and 2nd phase Chimaeron. There is no logical argument against Ret being in a 'poor' place right now. But it certainly does pull its own weight, bringing moderate to high DPS for a 'bottom' melee DPS spec AND a lot of raid utility.

[Requital]

You answered your own question. Having 2 Ret is pointless. Ret has more to offer a raid than an Arcane Mage however.
Holy Wrath AoE Stun
Turn Evil (Granted, every spec can make use of Turn Evil, I would rather I use a glyph for it on say...Nefarion adds, instead of a Holy/Prot.)
Repentance
Threat Modifier/Physical Damage Protection/Damage Reduction(Transfer)
Lay on Hands
Interrupt
On top of this, Ret has a LOT of survivability on its own for fights like...3rd phase Ascendant Council and 2nd phase Chimaeron. There is no logical argument against Ret being in a 'poor' place right now. But it certainly does pull its own weight, bringing moderate to high DPS for a 'bottom' melee DPS spec AND a lot of raid utility.

Moderate to high DPS for being a bottom melee? Is that like an Oxymoron?

[Beckwin]

Moderate to high DPS for being a bottom melee? Is that like an Oxymoron?

I mentioned 'bottom' DPS, as that's the public perception of Ret right now. Which may very well be true. I personally have been pleased in with my #'s in general. Could there be room to fix some pressing mechanics with Ret? Absolutely. As we've seen in the numerous threads here about Ret DPS, the numbers being shown are simply personal performance. There are plenty of people here who perform well above the 'norm' of what people think Ret should do, while others hover at the medium or even below it.

The mastery change is certainly needed, but its not the major thing that really makes Ret weak on current encounters. It's the stacking seal mechanic.