Something I've noticed about Ret Paladin Gear

[bjbinns]

So, I've seen the stat weights, with crit and mastery around 0.10 dps per point (sometimes as high as .15). I've also seen that strength is 1.0.

Because of this, I was wondering if the Vicious set is actually BiS (for now at least until people acquire raid BiS) since the 4 piece and 2 piece cumulatively give 250 strength. Obviously, you pass up a secondary stat for the resilience, but wouldn't the PVP set still be better unless we were giving up over 2000 of that secondary stat?

The reason I ask is because it seems logical to me, but looking at World of Logs, I don't see anyone with competitive dps using the PVP set. Everyone has a half set of 359 raid drops and heroic blues.

What do you guys think? Could someone enlighten me?

[Requital]

So, I've seen the stat weights, with crit and mastery around 0.10 dps per point (sometimes as high as .15). I've also seen that strength is 1.0.

Because of this, I was wondering if the Vicious set is actually BiS (for now at least until people acquire raid BiS) since the 4 piece and 2 piece cumulatively give 250 strength. Obviously, you pass up a secondary stat for the resilience, but wouldn't the PVP set still be better unless we were giving up over 2000 of that secondary stat?

The reason I ask is because it seems logical to me, but looking at World of Logs, I don't see anyone with competitive dps using the PVP set. Everyone has a half set of 359 raid drops and heroic blues.

What do you guys think? Could someone enlighten me?

Vicious 4PC is damn near on par with 4PC T11 it really depends if the additional 340 Strength on the vicious can overcome the approximate 3% damage gain that 2PC provides. In short blue pvp is better then all offset pieces normal and heroic because of the 4pc. Vicious is just that much better with even more strength.

Let me give you some ideas overall so you can see the comparison, I'll use all blue PvP gear so there is a proper comparison.



Full PvE Gear JP/Heroics + Epic Rep gear and Raid Ring/Cloak


4pc Bloodthirsty + Epic Rep gear and Raid Ring/Cloak



3pc Bloodthirsty 1pc Vicious + Epic Rep gear and Raid Ring/Cloak

As you can see the 4PC PvE with the small amount of extra haste does not come close to having the same stat values as nearly 1K AP.

[whitewing]

4 piece vicious with our BiS tank helmet is part of our best gear set (not counting heroic gear: you do use t11 heroic).

It's sad.

[Cryblood]

wow thats fucked up

[Requital]

This might seem odd, But of course the class being broken we'll see how it pans out but I believe this is going to be really close to BiS Raid gear.

Requital BiS pre Heroic

Requital BiS pre Heroic II

Either of these could be BiS I don't care for crushing weight I don't like erratic haste.

It wouldn't let go of Heroic Ashkandi so I redid them with proper weapons!

[Kusetjuv]

Vicious 4PC is damn near on par with 4PC T11 it really depends if the additional 340 Strength on the vicious can overcome the approximate 3% damage gain that 2PC provides. In short blue pvp is better then all offset pieces normal and heroic because of the 4pc. Vicious is just that much better with even more strength.

Let me give you some ideas overall so you can see the comparison, I'll use all blue PvP gear so there is a proper comparison.



Full PvE Gear JP/Heroics + Epic Rep gear and Raid Ring/Cloak


4pc Bloodthirsty + Epic Rep gear and Raid Ring/Cloak



3pc Bloodthirsty 1pc Vicious + Epic Rep gear and Raid Ring/Cloak

As you can see the 4PC PvE with the small amount of extra haste does not come close to having the same stat values as nearly 1K AP.

Dont really matter. With pvp gear you lose haste, which is the most powerful stat after hit/exp cap. (ofc strength is better)
So it will most likely add up anyway.

Try test the dps and you'll see.

[Xs]

Dont really matter. With pvp gear you lose haste, which is the most powerful stat after hit/exp cap. (ofc strength is better)
So it will most likely add up anyway.

Try test the dps and you'll see.

Haste is nice, 1k AP is nicer, "Try test the dps and you'll see"

[t3hj0j0]

With pvp gear you lose haste, which is the most powerful stat after hit/exp cap.

I do believe that crit comes out ahead of haste by .1 (or is it .01) either way, Alot of what I've seen shows crit to beat out haste. But, as Xs pointed out, Str>everything else.

[Kusetjuv]

Haste is nice, 1k AP is nicer, "Try test the dps and you'll see"

Ugh..yeah? Strength is overall best, but dont you understand that less haste makes a longer break between each filler. (CS)

Which again adds up same dmg, as if I had 1 k AP less but alot more haste.

Ive already tested it, so I approve.

[bjbinns]

Ugh..yeah? Strength is overall best, but dont you understand that less haste makes a longer break between each filler. (CS)

Which again adds up same dmg, as if I had 1 k AP less but alot more haste.

Ive already tested it, so I approve.

Stat
Redcape 5.12
Exemplar 12-22
Str 1 1
AP .45 .45
Hit .42 .27
Exp .27 .18
Crit .20 .12
Haste .16 .11
Mastery .09 .06

Two different stat weightings, one from EJ and one from Redcape. Both show that you would need to give up between 1500-2500 haste in order for gaining +250 strength to be a DPS loss.

Saying "I tested it and it's right" without giving any calculations or weightings of your own doesn't really mean much.

[Deleted]

Ugh..yeah? Strength is overall best, but dont you understand that less haste makes a longer break between each filler. (CS)

Which again adds up same dmg, as if I had 1 k AP less but alot more haste.

Ive already tested it, so I approve.

I don't think you understand what "fillers" are.

Fillers are the attacks the we use in between crusader strikes. That is Hammer of Wrath, Exorcism, Judgement, Holy Wrath, and Consecration (in order of priority).

Haste lessens our cooldown on crusader strike through the sancticity of battle talent, but unfortunately, we are currently designed in such an awkward way, that getting ENOUGH haste to reach a 3 second cooldown on crusader strike with raidbuffs will not happen anytime soon (maybe in a later tier).

This means that we are left with an awful lot of empty gaps in our rotation if we wanted to use 1 filler after every crusader strike. Current math shows, that using 2 fillers in between CS is always a DPS gain. I bolded this part, because this is the most important thing to grasp, if you want to understand why haste is not as good as it sounds in theory.

If we are always going to cram in 2 fillers between every crusader strike, then what does it matter, if the cooldown is 3.8s or 3.6 seconds? We are going to push it back the majority of the time regardless.

This means that Sanctity of battle loses a LOT of ground as a scaling talent, simply because it doesn't come in to account very often. Yes, sometimes all our fillers will be on cooldown and we get to benefit from a lowered Crusader strike CD directly, but the majority of the time we will have something to push. Especially during bloodlust, where our procs light up like a christmas tree (exo and HoL both take prio over CS).

This is the primary reason why Crit is currently rating slightly higher than Haste in our statweights. So unless we can actually reduce our CS to 3s raidbuffed as standard (won't happen until like 3900 haste rating), it is not that advantagous to stack in large amounts. It still increases our melee swing speed, censure tick rate and AoW/HoL proc rate, but the lowered CS cooldown isn't really that attractive when it comes down to it.

[Kusetjuv]

I don't think you understand what "fillers" are.

Fillers are the attacks the we use in between crusader strikes. That is Hammer of Wrath, Exorcism, Judgement, Holy Wrath, and Consecration (in order of priority).

Haste lessens our cooldown on crusader strike through the sancticity of battle talent, but unfortunately, we are currently designed in such an awkward way, that getting ENOUGH haste to reach a 3 second cooldown on crusader strike with raidbuffs will not happen anytime soon (maybe in a later tier).

This means that we are left with an awful lot of empty gaps in our rotation if we wanted to use 1 filler after every crusader strike. Current math shows, that using 2 fillers in between CS is always a DPS gain. I bolded this part, because this is the most important thing to grasp, if you want to understand why haste is not as good as it sounds in theory.

If we are always going to cram in 2 fillers between every crusader strike, then what does it matter, if the cooldown is 3.8s or 3.6 seconds? We are going to push it back the majority of the time regardless.

This means that Sanctity of battle loses a LOT of ground as a scaling talent, simply because it doesn't come in to account very often. Yes, sometimes all our fillers will be on cooldown and we get to benefit from a lowered Crusader strike CD directly, but the majority of the time we will have something to push. Especially during bloodlust, where our procs light up like a christmas tree (exo and HoL both take prio over CS).

This is the primary reason why Crit is currently rating slightly higher than Haste in our statweights. So unless we can actually reduce our CS to 3s raidbuffed as standard (won't happen until like 3900 haste rating), it is not that advantagous to stack in large amounts. It still increases our melee swing speed, censure tick rate and AoW/HoL proc rate, but the lowered CS cooldown isn't really that attractive when it comes down to it.

To your information ive always looked on fillers as the abilites that fills up the bar with holy power...
Can't I have my own opinion about what a filler is?

[Deleted]

To your information ive always looked on fillers as the abilites that fills up the bar with holy power...
Can't I have my own opinion about what a filler is?

If you want to live in your own imaginary world of suck and ignorance, sure.

If you want to engage in public intelligent discussion on a wow messageboard about retribution paladins, no.

[Kusetjuv]

Oh so I suck and all that cause I thought crusader strike is a filler? Lol.

I just feel that the more often I get to use my CS, which is the most important ability in pve right now, I get more dps..I just feel it, and believe me im at the dummy very often.

I want some kind of reliable source for why crit is better than haste, eventually screenshots/statistic showing crit being superior to haste now.

[Televators]

Oh so I suck and all that cause I thought crusader strike is a filler? Lol.

I just feel that the more often I get to use my CS, which is the most important ability in pve right now, I get more dps..I just feel it, and believe me im at the dummy very often.

I want some kind of reliable source for why crit is better than haste, eventually screenshots/statistic showing crit being superior to haste now.

Why do people who are obviously wrong always ask for proof right after someone gives them proof?

[Kusetjuv]

Why do people who are obviously wrong always ask for proof right after someone gives them proof?

Give me the freedom to ask where the hell this so-called "proof" is?

An assumption is very different from the truth, bru.

[Malleus]

I want some kind of reliable source for why crit is better than haste, eventually screenshots/statistic showing crit being superior to haste now.

Then go to Elitist Jerks and read the Retribution threads. And please .... post there.

[Badpaladin]

Give me the freedom to ask where the hell this so-called "proof" is?

An assumption is very different from the truth, bru.

Right in front of you. Also, when you're talking about something ENTIRELY different than what everybody else is, it's not smart to expect them to know what you're talking about.

[Kusetjuv]

Right in front of you. Also, when you're talking about something ENTIRELY different than what everybody else is, it's not smart to expect them to know what you're talking about.

I'm sorry mam, but I still can't see any reliable source that shows that crit gives better dps than haste, which I was already talking about when I mentioned that even when u get 1 k ap more but ur haste is reduced its normal to have the exact same dps nonetheless.

I guess everybody knew what I was talking about since I got so many answers..every answer about what I said in the first place.

[t3hj0j0]

I just feel that the more often I get to use my CS, which is the most important ability in pve right now, I get more dps..I just feel it, and believe me im at the dummy very often.

And with haste at the current possible levels, unless you are using NOTHING between every ability, you use CS almost no faster than if you had 0 haste. Haste increases your swing timer, which isn't actually a major deal with again, the possible levels of haste. It also increase censure's tick rate, which doesn't tick for shit anyway, and adding more ticks of it doesn't make a difference. Crit effects CS ,TV, exo, judge, HoW (auto-crit FTW), HW and everything else under the sun. Guess which matter's more?
And if you want proof, look at what bjbinns posted. Unless you have indisputable math proof sating both of those are wrong, you ARE wrong.