Do Frost Mages need Netherwind Presence?

[kaskadereno]

Forgive me if this has already been addressed. I have rerolled as a mage for Cataclysm and need a little more practice on the higher damage fire spec (as well as a little more gear) so I have been playing frost for the time being. Using Molten Armor with lower levels of gear (alot of 333s, resil gear or worse) mana is pretty tight even with gem on CD and Evocation.
My build is off Ej so it looks like this: http://wowtal.com/#k=RBkn_LFO.a67.mage.

So my question is this: is there any reason to take Netherwind presence over Arcane Concentration? My frostbolt seems to hover at 1.9 seconds raid buffed with or without that talent so is there any sort of math that says bringing it down to 1.8 is a big increase? Also, if I take this build and attempt to put all 3 points into Enduring Winter (again, to help with mana) what talent should I snub? Reactive Barrier?
Really appreciate any input. Thanks in advance.
Cheers!

[Tirsten]

You're problem isn't spec, it's that you're using molten armor full time. Use mage armor as necessary to regen.

(EJ's spec is fine, but you might think about moving 2 points from reactive barrier to ice shards for the extra range on ice lance.)

[kaskadereno]

You're problem isn't spec, it's that you're using molten armor. Using mage armor is correct.

(EJ's spec is fine, but you might think about moving 2 points from reactive barrier to ice shards for the extra range on ice lance.)

Really? Frost mages aren't supposed to use molten armor? That seems like a huge oversight on my part. I will now cane myself in public for sheer humiliation. So even below crit soft cap mage armor is better huh?

[Tirsten]

Yeah. Read both the OP and the subsequent discussion here, the signal:noise ratio is pretty good: http://elitistjerks.com/f75/t110339-...ion_cataclysm/

Also look at world of logs buffs gained and see what good mages are doing on specific fights.

[xile]

Yeah. Read both the OP and the subsequent discussion here, the signal:noise ratio is pretty good: http://elitistjerks.com/f75/t110339-...ion_cataclysm/

If you're going to say something at least provide info on it other than a link, they both have their own time regardless of what anyone says. If you know you aren't going to run OOM before the fight is over switching to molten is worth the gcd. There are times for both, just don't go switching back and forth every 10 seconds.

---------- Post added 2011-01-07 at 04:27 PM ----------

Forgive me if this has already been addressed. I have rerolled as a mage for Cataclysm and need a little more practice on the higher damage fire spec (as well as a little more gear) so I have been playing frost for the time being. Using Molten Armor with lower levels of gear (alot of 333s, resil gear or worse) mana is pretty tight even with gem on CD and Evocation.
My build is off Ej so it looks like this: http://wowtal.com/#k=RBkn_LFO.a67.mage.

So my question is this: is there any reason to take Netherwind presence over Arcane Concentration? My frostbolt seems to hover at 1.9 seconds raidbuffed with or without that talent so is there any sort of math that says bringing it down to 1.8 is a big increase? If not, there is no way I will spec into Netherwind Presence especially using Molten Armor. Also if I take this build and attempt to put all 3 points into Enduring Winter (again, to help with mana) what talent should I snub? Reactive Barrier?
Really appreciate any input. Thanks in advance.
Cheers!

Reactive barrier is essentially useless, it applies itself to the cd on your barrier so speccing it means that when under 50% assuming your shield is off cooldown it will pop it up. It's a defensive cd that does nothing for your dps, and nothing for survivability other than not requiring you to push the barrier button occasionally.

http://wowtal.com/#k=RBkn_L5i.a67.mage. try that. use mage armor unless you know the encounter well enough to know when to switch to molten armor. Ideally you'd end the fight everytime between 10/5% mana but that's cutting it close for a lot of people obviously. Any more mana than that however is just a waste of not using the more dps appropriate armor for the time.

[kaskadereno]

Alright. Well I guess for the time being I will switch Glyph of Molten Armor to Glyph of Frostbolt. So, back to the original question......Netherwind Presence is good simply because Mage Armor provides enough mana regen that you don't need Clearcasting procs and at least NP is some sort of DPS increase? Is that it?

[Tirsten]

I've never had a mana problem running with mage armor, although I've never had to aoe as frost. In general, the first point in arcane concentration provides a small amount of mana, the 2nd and 3rd points provide significantly less. So yeah, the points go into NP because it's a minor dps increase and there's nothing else to do with those points.

[Swizzle]

Alright. Well I guess for the time being I will switch Glyph of Molten Armor to Glyph of Frostbolt. So, back to the original question......Netherwind Presence is good simply because Mage Armor provides enough mana regen that you don't need Clearcasting procs and at least NP is some sort of DPS increase? Is that it?

Yes, Netherwind Presence>>>>>>>>>Arcane Concentration for Frost.

[Kirrbie]

I'm probably not as pro as some of you but why the hell would anybody use mage armor to dps in pve, really. Yes mana is a concern for a lot of fights and it's esp evident once you get to raiding, but almost all of these "mage guides" or whatever will tell you that mana essentially does not exist on mage armor. I just read yesterday somewhere that using mage armor allows you to use your highest dps rotational skills when you are going oom and out of cd for retaining mana. I can link, no problem

[DukeEntropy]

Use molten armor, use mana gem when you'r a bit low on mana, and Evo when you'r about 35% mana, and if you're still running low on mana, and your mana Cd's aren't ready use mage armor, but from what i've heared, you shouldn't have mana problems at all, if you're not AoEing. I play a fire mage, and it's well known that they use way more mana than frost, and i don't really have mana problems, so i think as frost you shouldn't have them either. Maybe the problem will go away if you have better gear.

[Tirsten]

Stop making things up.

[Flaks]

Might be wrong information here but I recall reading in some guide that frost mages should be using molten armor in shorter fights/when they know that they can maintain mana well enough to not run oom. If memory servers correctly, frost mages can use molten armor most of the fight and then use mage armor as soon as their mana gets in the yellow (below 50%).

[kaskadereno]

Use molten armor, use mana gem when you'r a bit low on mana, and Evo when you'r about 35% mana, and if you're still running low on mana, and your mana Cd's aren't ready use mage armor, but from what i've heared, you shouldn't have mana problems at all, if you're not AoEing. I play a fire mage, and it's well known that they use way more mana than frost, and i don't really have mana problems, so i think as frost you shouldn't have them either. Maybe the problem will go away if you have better gear.

Yeah, good point. Gear is probably the issue. Keep in mind, though.....you can spam Scorch for free anytime even on the move and for not a very large dps loss... Frost mages can't do anything like that.

Other than BF FFB, Frost has no free spells.....everything costs mana. I respect that fire is the harder and higher dps spec right now and I'm working on my fire skills atm. And what you described is exactly what I do. Molten Armor.....mana gem at 85%, Evocate at 35%, mana gem again when off cd. But alot of people/posts say Mage Armor.

It's a tough decision, IMO when any frost mage is well below crit soft cap raidbuffed. The crit gained by Molten Armor is huge for frost in that scenario but playing that mana game is a bit distracting while doing rotations and learning to negotiate new raidboss mechanics, especially on longer fights.
Anyway, I will try Mage Armor for awhile with Enduring Winter 3/3 and see what my deeps is like. If it's terrible compared to Molten I guess I can always switch back. Whatever armor tricks I have to do, I think I will just sacrifice Reactive Barrier either way as it seems terrible for a player who is good at avoiding damage and has decent healers.

[Fahren Kaa]

After the soft crit cap (33%, raid buffed) molten armor isn't worth nearly as much DPS as it is at 30% (or 28, glyphed).

Other than that, knowledge here is a big deal, really. On aoe / control fights (Halfus, Cho'gall, Magmaw, alchemist (name escapes me) and Nefarian) you definitely want to have MA up. On other fights, you probably want to use both armors depending on the phase. On the twin dragons, I'd probably run Molten in phase 1 and Mage in phase 2, where there's more raid damage and movement going on, mitigating and squeezing in more expensive instant casts. On elemental council, I'd run Mage on P1 and P2, to make sure that I have 100% mana when P3 comes in to blast away. On Omintron, I'd go Molten when the buff puddle spawns. On Altremedes, molten during P1, MA during P2. On Chimaeron, MA during P1, to ensure max mana for P2.

[Töasty]

I have mixed thoughts. First off, why pick up reactive barrier, by taking out points from Enduring Winter and losing 6% mana reduction, only to have to use mage armor instead of molten, essentially losing 3 to 5% crit for the tradeoff of 2% haste? 2% haste shaves off a whopping .04 seconds off of frostbolt's 2 second cast time. When you factor in shatter tripling your crit chance, until you reach 33% crit, isn't molten armor essentially giving you 15% crit when you have FoF up?

This spec you found on EJ, is it for someone in t11 gear?

I guess another important factor is comparing haste vs mastery. I would think the more haste you have, the more frostbolts you cast, which means more mana usage, and also means frostbolt will be a higher percentage of your overall damage. The more mastery you have, the more deep freeze, brainfreeze, and ice lance contribute to your damage, and the less mana you use.

Are there any graphs comparing haste and mastery when you are hit capped and soft capped with crit?

What I'm getting it is this, if you had 17% hit, 33% crit, 0 haste and X mastery, isn't there another side of the spectrum where if you had 17% hit, 33% crit, Y haste and 0 mastery, you would do the exact same damage, but due to more mana consumption, could not sustain the damage as long as you could with 0 haste and X mastery? It almost seems like to maximize damage, one would want to balance haste and mastery, adjusting haste and thus mana usage based on the duration of the fight.

I would think that we would be best using molten armor and gearing for more mastery until we reach a value of crit where we can switch to mage armor. At that point I would think that haste might start to become more valuable than mastery, particularly for sustained damage.

---------- Post added 2011-01-07 at 06:57 PM ----------

Another thought/question regarding haste, I know there are break point values for fire spec (12.5% haste), where you gain an additional tick of living bomb, is there a % of haste where ignite gains an additional tick?

[Swizzle]

No, Ignite does NOT scale with Haste.

[hagar4172]

i use molten armor full time never really run out of mana in frost spec, only fight where that happens is 2nd boss in rioc vortex cause of the major haste buff u get when u standing in the right spot or when i just not paying attention

[Acww52]

NP > arcane convertion,

NP = more haste = more fof procs since ur casting more frostbolts. Also 1 more tick on ignite / ffb dots.

I find that on norm fights i don't have to worry about mana. (avg gear is 356 equipped almost 33.34 cap) but on magmaw and malrick i'll have to use two - three blizzards per aoe parts. For magmaw stay in molten till evo then switch to mage armor. Only go back to molten during impale phase then switch back. On mal, with my guilds strat of 2 aoe phases. I cast about 3 Blizzards per aoe phase. so what i do is keep mage armor on for 1 min 20 secounds then i switch to molten for the rest. Since the 1 min and 20 secounds of the fight would be the same mana cost of the 3 blizzards.