Why "Let them die" Isn't An Acceptable Answer

[Bombkirby]

Exactly! Letting them die will not magically teach people a lesson. Heck most of the time "Please watch your aggro/use tricks/gimme time to build aggro" will be enough. And if they do not listen to you after asking them several times, then kick em.

[Keiios]

honestly as a healer if the person is to stupid to not stand in fire, falling debris, ect. the mana the healer is wasting on that person could be used on the group and could potentially cause the group to die. you still give them heals when it starts but if they don't move then they need to die. Its like with tanks if the dps are attacking the wrong target and pull agro then they need to die(assisting is hard).

this is fitting for this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfxPZZ6fmNE

[Fandandra]

I only ever let people die if I've told them what's wrong and how to fix it multiple times and they still keep failing.

Chances are if they're failing I'm going oom trying to keep them up so then I can't heal the tank and we all die anyways - better to lose one dps and win than keep everyone up till you wipe :P

[Burninfate]

Venting: This is for all those people who, in response to tanks/healers complaining about jerks/ignorance/poor players in LFD, just say "Just let them die lol." There's several reasons why this answer is SIMPLY UNACCEPTABLE and here they are:

1: Vote Kick - as a healer, if you let someone die for their own mistakes, raging usually ensues and you get all sorts of abuse in chat and then more often than not you get vote kicked when you explain that you actually let him die for being stupid.

2. Lack of Cooperation - As a tank, if you try to let someone die to teach them a lesson, you need to have the healer cooperating with you. If you don't and he/she successfully heals through the intended punishment, you run the risk of being branded a "shitty tank" and getting raged at/kicked. If your healer isn't cooperating and runs OOM trying to save whoever you're attempting to kill, you run the risk of wiping. Again leaving you open to being branded a "shitty tank" and/or "N00B."

3. Desire for completion - If you're in LFD, chances are you're looking to run a dungeon, even if just for marks (Unless you're one of those people who inexplicably declines at the last second after waiting in queue). As such, "let him die" is counterproductive. Sure, you can harbor a personal vendetta against some anonymous mage who doesn't know what polymorph is or that black/red/green circles on the ground are bad but in the end, if you spend your time letting him keep aggro and dying and then reigning in whatever mob it was, it's time lost. Not to mention the additional cost of resurrecting the player and waiting for heals/whoever else to mana up and get back to business. It's a tangent and it's useless.

4. Impenetrably thick skulls/fruitlessness - Usually in LFD, the players that make you the angriest are the ones that refuse to learn. As such, there is no way they are going to take the experience of pulling a mob off the tank and getting slaughtered by it as being in any way their fault. Rather, they will lol at their "uber deeps" and talk trash about how the tank should L2p. So there is no point in letting them die. As a healer, letting them die for standing in fire or pulling ahead of the tank is equally fruitless as it robs you of a party member (no matter how bad) and teaches them nothing excep that "you suk lulz."

5. Because it won't teach them anything - the idea behind letting them die is that it'll teach them something. In reality, if they wanted to learn, they'd ask or listen to your well deserved criticism. Unfortunately, they don't or won't and it appears the old statement, "I know you think your $14.99 per month entitles you to play the way you want but the rest of the raid's $359.76 thinks you should know your role," has been completely forgotten.

So stop saying it. You are not being sagacious and it solves nobody's problems.

Also, "LOL get a guild" is equally dumb

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Sidebar: I'm not saying that letting someone die doesn't make you feel warm and fuzzy or somehow avenged for their wronging you (because it TOTALLY does), I'm just saying that as advice or as a response to someone expressing frustration over lack of understanding/player knowledge, it's incredibly unconstructive...

Letting them dies is the simplest way to solve your problem, This is not Lets teach everyone how to play, Yes a pug, when you are in a Pug you are required to do more then you should have to, with one person not doing that or just acting stupid, let them die and move on, you stop wasting your time and yeah... 5 ppl in a pug 1 person wasting 4 other subs

[meadatron]

See this is why I rolled a priest, you can use life grip to cure retardation, however people like the OP DESPISE being life gripped, and often seem quite content to run as soon as they are life gripped usually right back into the fire

[Nexxia]

Healing isnt hard, this is a myth built up because its not necessarily as fun for other players so they play DPS. I healed raids in BC, Its not hard if you have a Grid or healbot, actually if anything its easier than dps. Tanking is not hard, I have this on authority from tanks I know. This is an excuse to feel superior or elite. Every class has a role to play with just as much to pay attention to. All healers do is click a little window displaying health and debuffs.

[Cairm]

I do exactly the same thing.
And if someone tries to start a fight with me, I just ignore them.
Without adding any fuel to the fire, he will grow bored very quickly and stop to insult me.

I do the same also. At worst it helps the group as the guy trying to start a fight won't be focused, allowing me to do alot beter then him. Then, when he notices how bad he is doing, he will try to outplay me.

[Sorissa]

'Let them die' won't solve anything

well... if i have to choose between going oom healing someone constantly getting damaged from getting hit by avoidable stuff or try to 4 man the boss, i'll choose the latter.

though i always tell them what they did wrong while i ress them.

it could all be avoided if theyd just say "hey what does this boss do?" before wasting everyone's time.

[Fandandra]

See this is why I rolled a priest, you can use life grip to cure retardation, however people like the OP DESPISE being life gripped, and often seem quite content to run as soon as they are life gripped usually right back into the fire

Agh I know right I'm like "I moved you here for a reason, stay out of the giant orange circle you retard!" I never actually say it...well in vent with friends, but I'm nice and keep my thoughts away from pugs lol

[unholytestament]

Healing isnt hard, this is a myth built up because its not necessarily as fun for other players so they play DPS. I healed raids in BC, Its not hard if you have a Grid or healbot, actually if anything its easier than dps. Tanking is not hard, I have this on authority from tanks I know. This is an excuse to feel superior or elite. Every class has a role to play with just as much to pay attention to. All healers do is click a little window displaying health and debuffs.

I'm not going to say healing is hard. Harder than DPS, but not hard.

That doesn't mean that the DPS is allowed to act like complete morons.

Because that is what these people do. And it hurts the group.

[timtim89]

When i tank and a dps is attacking the wrong target, this seems to happen when they are marked as well. But anyways if they are attacking the wrong target i dont fight for threat and let them tank it. They take a good bit of damage and have the chance of dying. Thats how i see it =P

[Nuus]

Venting: This is for all those people who, in response to tanks/healers complaining about jerks/ignorance/poor players in LFD, just say "Just let them die lol." There's several reasons why this answer is SIMPLY UNACCEPTABLE and here they are:

1: Vote Kick - as a healer, if you let someone die for their own mistakes, raging usually ensues and you get all sorts of abuse in chat and then more often than not you get vote kicked when you explain that you actually let him die for being stupid.

2. Lack of Cooperation - As a tank, if you try to let someone die to teach them a lesson, you need to have the healer cooperating with you. If you don't and he/she successfully heals through the intended punishment, you run the risk of being branded a "shitty tank" and getting raged at/kicked. If your healer isn't cooperating and runs OOM trying to save whoever you're attempting to kill, you run the risk of wiping. Again leaving you open to being branded a "shitty tank" and/or "N00B."

3. Desire for completion - If you're in LFD, chances are you're looking to run a dungeon, even if just for marks (Unless you're one of those people who inexplicably declines at the last second after waiting in queue). As such, "let him die" is counterproductive. Sure, you can harbor a personal vendetta against some anonymous mage who doesn't know what polymorph is or that black/red/green circles on the ground are bad but in the end, if you spend your time letting him keep aggro and dying and then reigning in whatever mob it was, it's time lost. Not to mention the additional cost of resurrecting the player and waiting for heals/whoever else to mana up and get back to business. It's a tangent and it's useless.

4. Impenetrably thick skulls/fruitlessness - Usually in LFD, the players that make you the angriest are the ones that refuse to learn. As such, there is no way they are going to take the experience of pulling a mob off the tank and getting slaughtered by it as being in any way their fault. Rather, they will lol at their "uber deeps" and talk trash about how the tank should L2p. So there is no point in letting them die. As a healer, letting them die for standing in fire or pulling ahead of the tank is equally fruitless as it robs you of a party member (no matter how bad) and teaches them nothing excep that "you suk lulz."

5. Because it won't teach them anything - the idea behind letting them die is that it'll teach them something. In reality, if they wanted to learn, they'd ask or listen to your well deserved criticism. Unfortunately, they don't or won't and it appears the old statement, "I know you think your $14.99 per month entitles you to play the way you want but the rest of the raid's $359.76 thinks you should know your role," has been completely forgotten.

So stop saying it. You are not being sagacious and it solves nobody's problems.

Also, "LOL get a guild" is equally dumb

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Sidebar: I'm not saying that letting someone die doesn't make you feel warm and fuzzy or somehow avenged for their wronging you (because it TOTALLY does), I'm just saying that as advice or as a response to someone expressing frustration over lack of understanding/player knowledge, it's incredibly unconstructive...

I disagree. Sometimes, you simply get stuck with a troll who's only intent is to fuck up your random, or simply make sure everyone has a bad time. Usually, someone making a mistake is simply that; a mistake. But there are times where you get stuck with someone intentionally making an ass out of themselves, and "Let them die" is perfectly reasonable IF for whatever reason you cannot vote-kick them.

Such reasons may be that you've already had to v-kick a member and therefore cannot do so again (happens very rarely in my experience, but it does happen). Or, maybe they're the type that makes sure to constantly pull; can't vote-kick while in or recently were in combat.

At this point, it takes simple communication with your party members; making sure both the tank and healer on are the level ("can't kick troll; don't heal/tank for him") and if he's also a ninja, simply turn on master-looter or have everyone else ALSO roll need and try to fairly distribute loot as a group.

Your reasons as to why NOT to let them die are quite.... Interesting. here's my take:

1. "vote-kick" bit of a misnomer there as you are referring to the fact that YOU may get votekicked. Again, communication is key; if everyone agrees that the target is being disruptive and therefore should recieve no help, only the troll will be getting upset. And that'll just be at the fact that you aren't letting them have their fun.

2. "Lack of Cooperation" again, basically the exact same issue as the first. MAKE SURE YOUR GROUP COMMUNICATES. If you simply decide that you're going to let someone die and don't actually voice this decision at all, yes, people will assume you simply messed up as well.

3. "Desire for Completion" a relevant point for once! Again, the idea of "Let them die" only arises when the person in question is actually PREVENTING the completion of the run. All in all, the most effective way to get rid of the troll is to kick, and if you cannot, you can either cave in and disband, or simply sit down and do jack squat until they get bored and leave.

4. "Futility" was the word you were looking for. Apparently this is the problem: It seems to me that YOU have decided in the past to "let someone die", DIDN'T let the rest of the group know, (and by this post it simply seems like you let them die due to being incompetant but not intentionally trying to be a detriment to the group) and were then kicked by the group for not fulfilling your role. As for you 'point' here, all you can do for these people is try to give them helpful advice (hint; they are more likely to take it if you don't come off insulting them first) and if they respond with anger or attempt to cause a wipe; dispose of them.

5. Wait, isn't that this the exact same 'point' as 4? The idea is NOT that you'll 'teach' them anything. The idea is that (if they cannot be kicked) that they will, hopefully, get bored of dying and having no one respond to their trolling efforts, and simply leave of their own accord. And as for your statement "If they wanted to learn, they'd ask or listen to your well deserved criticism", some people are not even aware that they are doing anything wrong. Also, again, check *how* you are giving criticism. Is it along the lines of "[ret-paladinA], Righteous Fury is making it more difficult for me to keep aggro off of you" or is it "FUking retadin turn off righteous fury!"

And as for your sidebar, letting someone die is not about a feeling of vindication, it's simply trying to improve the group as a whole by eliminating a cancerous member.

Flame away, I'm out.

[cetarari]

Exactly! Letting them die will not magically teach people a lesson. Heck most of the time "Please watch your aggro/use tricks/gimme time to build aggro" will be enough. And if they do not listen to you after asking them several times, then kick em.

You're assuming I could have kept them alive without endangering the rest of the group. With mana and regen as it is at the moment I will let people stood in crap die, not because I want to 'teach them a lesson', but because I don't want to waste mana spam healing them, go oom and wipe the group. My priority is to keep up the tank, myself and as many dps as we need to take down the boss. If dpser 1 and 2 are for the most part avoiding the pools of doom on the floor whilst still dpsing and dpser 3 is stood in it not making any move to get out of it, I will absolutely stop healing dpser 3. I do not have the mana to spare to keep up dpser 3 whilst he or she bathes in the purple goo. However, if dpser 3 does move, after noticing their health is tanking I will do my best to throw them a couple of heals to get them out of danger and continue healing them. I do not want to be in the position where I am oom from healing stupid and can't keep up the tank.

[Razya]

I rarely let someone die unless they insist on being an idiot.
As a tank, if someone repeatedly pulls for me (and I ain't a slow puller, but I am very aware of the healer's mana) I'll warn them once, I'll warn them twice, and then I'll let them tank whatever mobs he holds agro on, and only pull agro from the rest of the pack that may go to the none retarded dps or my lovely healer. Generally the healer will support me, even if it's a pug, simply cause I do give out a fair warning. Often a healer even whispers me to "Just let them die". I won't kick, and most often than not, the overeager puller will learn his lesson.
This rule goes also for those using an agro pulling skill (Deathgrip, searing pain spam, that hunter thing I forgot the name of :P).

However if someone pulls agro from me because my agro is lacking, I'll just see that as a reason to step up my game. And if it's lack of gear vs their gear, I'll appoligize for my own lack of agro. Often that works productive enough that ppl'll be considerate.

If I'm healing (which I oh so rarely do) I'll heal what I can unless I notice someone standing in unavoidable damage. I'll still heal him, if it leads to a wipe I'll simply request them to be more aware of their surroundings cause it's costing my gcds as well as wasted mana and we can't afford it and I will NOT prioritize you over the rest for your own mistakes. A warning like that again solves most issues.

If they decide to rage quit about this, Im fine, but I've never been kicked myself because of making things clear beforehand.

So yes, I'm all for "Let them die" but do communicate. It's not even really teaching. You state something, you point it out, they either deal with it or not. It takes a bare minimum of effort.

[melodramocracy]

So in other words, you fail at your job. GG

The healer is choosing to not do his job, so why should anyone else bother? It's not failing, it's "teaching a lesson", right?

And while teaching that "lesson", you're now putting more stress on the rest of the group because you just effectively made the fight longer, or possibly risked a wipe, setting everyone back.

Healers, you aren't special. You're pressing buttons just like the rest of us. In a few months, as folks get much better gear, you'll likely be pressing less buttons than anyone else, and still whining like self entitled brats. If you're vote-kick worthy, it should most definitely happen, because the 5 minute wait for someone competent is of little consequence.

And oddly enough, I see just as many healers die to standing in fire / not knowing an encounter as any other class. Perhaps they're too focused on who is or isn't going to be privy to their next cast to bother actually moving themselves.

[Oxna]

What a great thread I was just tanking normal VP on my paladin level 83 about 30 minutes ago....with 800 ms but still, there was a ret pala who didn't know what Rebuke was, what a skull is and seemed to think running off ahead into trash was a good idea, a Resto Druid who seemed to think it was best to heal me when I was almost dead so I couldn't tank efficiently (even with lag lol) because of WoG spam a decent warlock and the last I forgot...anyway I started to rage on this paladin for being terrible and the healer left the group after we almost wiped on the first boss.

The fact of the matter is that you pretty much NEED a guild to do instances with, atleast you don't get abused/have someone spam "AGGRO" or "SHIT TANK LOL!" the most annoying thing is when you have 2 or 3 people from the same guild in your group they gang up on you but not so much when its 4 players, thats when I have the best instance runs - SHOCK HORROR!

[gibbie99]

Its not that people deserve a lesson or we're all mean (well, i'm not), but the fact is that healers run OOM quickly. So they can't heal stupid and heal the tank and make it to the end of the encounter. So the only thing is to teach stupid not to stand in stupid stuff. It's a really good cause and effect. If you make a mistake, you are penalized by health. Healers can no longer save you. Its not being vindivictive, everyone wants to complete the dungeon just as much, but we can't do it if the healer OOM halfway through the fight because of avoidable damage. It's pretty simple.

[Clouce]

Self correcting aggro is self correcting. And DPS means Don't Pull Shit!

Basically if your to stupid to learn gtfo the bad shit, I'm not letting you die out of spite I'm doing it because I don't have enough mana to out heal incompetence, this isn't WoTLK any more. They should be lucky I have the patience to not kick them, assuming I don't. Although this is the reason I only group with guild even before cata.

[Deleted]

Healing isnt hard, this is a myth built up because its not necessarily as fun for other players so they play DPS. I healed raids in BC, Its not hard if you have a Grid or healbot, actually if anything its easier than dps. Tanking is not hard, I have this on authority from tanks I know. This is an excuse to feel superior or elite. Every class has a role to play with just as much to pay attention to. All healers do is click a little window displaying health and debuffs.

How exactly is DPS'ing in a heroic (which is what this thread is about) harder than healing?

When I go offspec shadow for heroics or rarely for a raid, I laugh at just how easy it is, I have a basic spell priority list which is just the same over and over and over for a 3 minute fight, and I have to move from fire (which tanks and healers also have to do). Occasionally I am asked to kill something that isn't the boss, oh noes!

[Alfador]

The fact of the matter is that you pretty much NEED a guild to do instances with, atleast you don't get abused/have someone spam "AGGRO" or "SHIT TANK LOL!" the most annoying thing is when you have 2 or 3 people from the same guild in your group they gang up on you but not so much when its 4 players, thats when I have the best instance runs - SHOCK HORROR!

This is entirely false. I've had tons of good pugs. The only way to guarantee a good group is a guild group, but it isn't the only way to get one, not by a long shot.