DK Tanks with Agility (Druid/hunter) Weapons?

[The Marrok]

So I've recently come across a DK tank whom assures me that there is nothing wrong with a DK using a druid or hunter polearm, since the avoidance is so important. My direct response was, "What about threat or more omfp for Death Strikes?" No appropriate response was given to me after that. Just that, it's better for agility weapons and I'm bad for questioning it. Now I ask you. Is this true or is it false?

[Avatar Killer]

To grab it cause he has a weapon that is several levels lower or just flat out garbage and replace it with a decent heroic level item is one thing but to replace a heroic Str weapon with a heroic Agi weapon would be completely noobish. which one is it?

Str provides a very similiar amount of Parry that agi provides dodge and to top that argument Str also provides another useful stat - AP which is applied to pretty much everything a tank does save taunting.

Agi provides crit which is in itself at the bottom of the stack when it comes to stats atm. and the agility would provide a worthless amount of it. The Str would benefit a plate wearer of any kind boundless amounts more than agi ever will.

[Zao]

Agi does yield more avoidance per point than Str does, and if it has Mastery on it, it will make for a decent tanking weapon, assuming he can keep threat with it (which probably shouldn't be too much of a problem)

[MonsieuRoberts]

Like Avatar Killer said, grabbing an Agility weapon of the same iLvl of their current Str one would be bad.

I wouldn't have a problem if they had a quest item and needed the upgrade badly, and nobody else needed it. Otherwise I'd object.

[The Marrok]

I understand and agree with you Avatar, but he says it's the best thing for him. The Heroic PA in question is Seliza's Spear. Nice dip in mastery but is it really worth sacrificing the needed threat gen you get from strength?

[Harith]

well your are asking if 520 AP is worth sacrifacing when you have like 20k(with veng) i would say get mastery

[Bucky Mclachlan]

Agility offers more dodge per point than dodge rating, parry isn't everything. You need an optimal balance of dodge and parry. Dk, and druid tanking is different than paladins or warriors in that we don't have 3 avoidance stats, and therefore cannot really ever reach avoidance cap due to heavy dr.

Mastery also isn't very useful past 16 or so (100% absorb for what your death strike heals for), stamina is more useful as it increases the amount your death strike heals and therefore increases the amount your blood shield absorbs indirectly, still less important than dodge and parry of course.

[Floreon]

well your are asking if 520 AP is worth sacrifacing when you have like 20k(with veng) i would say get mastery

http://www.wowhead.com/item=56342

It isn't strength v mastery, mastery strength items exist and arent even rare.

[Rugz]

"What about threat or more omfp for Death Strikes?"

What about threat?
For pretty much any tank worth their salt it's a non-issue right now.

More omfp for Death Strikes?
See above, and get rid of this seemingly rampant misconception that Death Strike healing is related to damage.

Mastery also isn't very useful past 16 or so (100% absorb for what your death strike heals for), stamina is more useful as it increases the amount your death strike heals and therefore increases the amount your blood shield absorbs indirectly, still less important than dodge and parry of course.

Only if your Death Strike is healing for the minimum amount, if it is healing you with its damage per 5 component then Max HP has no relevance, and if you're DSing for 7% max HP then you aren't exactly taking a pounding.

http://www.wowhead.com/item=56342

It isn't strength v mastery, mastery strength items exist and arent even rare.

Indeed, it's Str/Haste vs Agi/Crit (Seliza's Spear). Well as was said, agi gives more avoidance per point than str, and the Seliza's Spear has more mastery, yes haste is a better survival stat than crit but you reforge both those stats into avoidance anyway, on every level except threat generation the Spear wins.

The Str would benefit a plate wearer of any kind boundless amounts more than agi ever will.

Please cite a source for the reasoning behind this statement.

[Floreon]

What about threat?
For pretty much any tank worth their salt it's a non-issue right now.

More omfp for Death Strikes?
See above, and get rid of this seemingly rampant misconception that Death Strike healing is related to damage.



Only if your Death Strike is healing for the minimum amount, if it is healing you with its damage per 5 component then Max HP has no relevance, and if you're DSing for 7% max HP then you aren't exactly taking a pounding.



Indeed, it's Str/Haste vs Agi/Crit (Seliza's Spear). Well as was said, agi gives more avoidance per point than str, and the Seliza's Spear has more mastery, yes haste is a better survival stat than crit but you reforge both those stats into avoidance anyway, on every level except threat generation the Spear wins.



Please cite a source for the reasoning behind this statement.

Did you just actually dismiss the difference between haste and crit because 40% of it goes away, while basing your entire argument on the marginal amount of avoidance that agility provides over strength?

[Rugz]

In the same way you dismiss the extra 28 mastery on the polearm, yes. The marginal marginal amount of extra dodge/parry you get from reforging your haste off the sword compared to the extra base mastery and avoidance you get from the Spear actually leaves you worse off.

Reforging the Spear gives you 61 dodge/parry

Reforging the Sword gives you 80 dodge/parry

So thats a gain of ~20 avoidance and a loss of 28 mastery, PLUS the reduction in avoidance from Strength over Agility as a base stat on the weapon.

Like I said, all you have left in favour of the sword is the 120 haste rating left on it giving you a tiny increase in rune regeneration.

[Crona]

The amount of mastery on Seliza's makes it a very nice tanking weap.

[Rukah]

I wouldn't care as long as the hunter/feral had 1st choice of the wep.

[Nyanmaru]

Avoidance through strength adds to the same diminishing returns as avoidance through parry rating since it adds parry rating.
Avoidance through dodge has a separate diminishing return thus will yield more return once you get higher parry rating.

In the current state of the game the TpS loss is absolutely negligible. But since tank survival is less of a problem then DpS requirements, those 4-5% DpS you can gain by using the strength weapon can make or break your day. And that agility weapon will not get you enough defenses so you could drop a healer for more DpS.

If you do heroics: The agility weapons are just as much of a tank weapon as the strength ones.
If you do raids: If noone needs the agility weapon, go for it.

[Ryukaar]

Agi does yield more avoidance per point than Str does, and if it has Mastery on it, it will make for a decent tanking weapon, assuming he can keep threat with it (which probably shouldn't be too much of a problem)

^ this, especially if the agi weapon has higher avg damage per hit, the loss of AP doesn't mater much.
Comes down to the secondary stats on the weapon and what your currently need.

[Deleted]

It is false. DK's have an ability that grants them parry rating from strength, which is slightly lower than the rating from agility, but it does not compensate for overall dps and threat loss, also our mastery depends on how large our deathstrike hits are, so he may be gaining 0.2% dodge but losing some damage absorption.

[Deleted]

our mastery depends on how large our deathstrike hits are, so he may be gaining 0.2% dodge but losing some damage absorption.

No it doesn't our mastery depends on how much we heal with death strike and death strikes damage has nothing to do with how much it heals for.

The heal is determined by how much damage we take we could technically hit for 1 and still get a diecent blood shield.

[Kauppaneuvos]

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=49998

A deadly attack that deals 150% weapon damage plus (((330 * 150 / 100))), healing you for 25% of the damage you have sustained during the preceding 5 sec (minimum of at least 7% of your maximum health).

[Avatar Killer]

Please cite a source for the reasoning behind this statement.

Look at your character sheet. Str provides parry rating and... AP!!!

AP is clearly better than crit in every aspect based on the weight of crit vs str. agility provides dodge while str provides parry... the levels are nearly equal and both apply DR. agility provides crit (usless) vs str's AP providing a bonus to threat and damage at a constant rate,

do i need to elaborate?

---------- Post added 2011-01-11 at 11:43 AM ----------

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=49998

A deadly attack that deals 150% weapon damage plus (((330 * 150 / 100))), healing you for 25% of the damage you have sustained during the preceding 5 sec (minimum of at least 7% of your maximum health).

your 25% that you put in bold black letters though the tooltip reads this is wrong its 20% currently on live as well as the damage you TOOK not dealt (directed to skals)

[Cyrant]

as well as the damage you TOOK not dealt (directed to skals)

What do you think the word "sustained" means?