Jar of Ancient Remedies

[Crunkosaurus]

So my fellow holy priest brethren, my question simply is this:

Is it better to not touch the use on this trinket (6420 mana and unable to stack static spirit from equip for 30 seconds) or use it on CD?

If my math is correct here is the information regarding it:

-Holy priests attain 1.3470337 mp5 per spirit (With Holy Concentration)
-693.722 static Mp5 from full equip stack (515 spirit total)
-In an average fight (5 minutes) you will receive:
-208,116 mana in 5 minutes without use.
-179,333 with use.

So unless my math is wrong which is entirely possible because I still use my fingers to count, I will continue to not touch that use. Anyone else get different numbers or have any arguments/insight?

Also I haven't crunched any numbers for the heroic version, so that might equate to a better turnout from the use. But I doubt it to be honest.

[Evolixe]

This is something ive been wondering aswell, can you redo your calculations as if holy concentration is 30% instead of 40?

[Crunkosaurus]

Ah I think you may have caught me, I believe I did this math when I was not aware of the hotfix to HC, I believe those calculations are with 20%. So im guessing the mana distance between not using and using will only get larger. Gonna do the math anyways because im bored.

---------- Post added 2011-01-20 at 12:08 AM ----------

Here's what I came up with:

1.48173 mp5 per spirit (With Holy Concentration, 30%)

763.090 Mp5 from equip stack (515 spirit)

228,927 mana in 5 minutes without use

12,840 from use (used twice in a 5 minute fight)

195,981 with use

So still by a significant amount.

[Holse]

The thing is, that you might get into a spot where you don't cast spells for more than 15 seconds because everyone is topped off. At that point I don't know which would be more beneficial, using the trinket at 14.5 sec or simply recasting a quick spell at that point.

Apart from that, I don't quite see how you get such a large difference on the two. Using it would put you at 30 seconds without the buff. Assuming a rampup time of 15 seconds, where you have approximately half the regen, that equates to:
6420+693.722*3*0.5 = 7459,5.

And actually, seeing as your value of 693.722 Mp5 with it stacked to full over those same 45 seconds is only
693.722*9 = 6243,5
I would actually assume that you're better off using it?

[Gahijnu]

I think your numbers are way too high. It seems you are using 693.722 mana per second, not per five seconds.

693.722 * 12 * 5 = 41623.

It's a bit tricky to compare with the use effect because it depends on when you use it. On every cooldown? Say that during a five minute period you use the trinket twice:

(693.722 * 12 * 5 - 693.722 * 6 * 2) + 6420 * 2 = 46138

This calculation doesn't take account for the build up period of the trinket which depends on how fast you cast five spells, which could differ over the fight. But if not bothering about that using the trinket is clearly better.

Also, five minutes isn't optimal to calculate the trinket's use effect since it has a 2 minute cooldown. If you use it at the start of those 5 minutes you could use it three times over the time period. Even if you account for the build up period (say 5 * 2,5 seconds for some Heals or GHeals) you could use it three times over those five minutes.

---

And using your updated values (763 mp5)...

Without use: 763.090 * 12 * 5 = 45785
With use: (763.090 * 12 * 5 - 763.090 * 6 * 2) + 6420 * 2 = 49468

Still a lead for using the use effect of the trinket.

[Xeraxis]

Not Using
1.35 mp5 per spirit
515 spirit for full stack
695.25 mp5
60 ticks of mp5 during a 5min fight

Assuming a 100% uptime of all 5 stacks without ever using the trinket in a 5 min fight:
41,715mana

Using
1.35 mp5 per spirit
515 spirit for full stack
695.25 mp5
54 ticks of mp5 during a 5min fight

Use of trinket once
6420mana

Assuming a 100% uptime of all 5 stacks without ever using the trinket in a 5 min fight:
43,963.5 mana

Total for 2 uses
46,212 mana

Total for 3 uses
48,460.5 mana

[Crunkosaurus]

Before anything else:

So unless my math is wrong

It's late and im still a little bit high.

Anyways, I always figured this trinket would be very situational. But even with my mathematical errors I'll bet it's still better to not use it.

[Holse]

You probably shouldn't really gamble much my friend!

[Bigslick]

763.090 Mp5 from equip stack (515 spirit)

Let's make the math simple... To round it off, let's call it 763 MP5.

Activating the on-use function of the trinket grants you 6420 mana. 6420 mana / 763MP5 = 8.414 5 second intervals, or about 42 seconds. So basically, after 30 seconds of no spirit boost, if you have it fully stacked 12 seconds after the debuff falls off, you've broken even.

Now take into account that you're getting partial benefit as you build stacks one through five, you have even longer than 12 seconds post-debuff before it's just a break-even. Then remember that every heal that lands builds a stack, including HoT ticks (so even if you just have a single renew going you're covered). Unless you're sitting completely idle, you'll have it restacked fast enough that you should almost always be taking advantage of the on-use for this trinket. For the moment, it's also really nice in that if you're not having mana issues but another caster is, you can grant the 6420 mana to them (if they're within about 3 yards).

TLDR: Use it. It'll pretty much always result in more mana over time for you.

Now if they'd just get rid of that %^& animation/graphic/sound popping EVERY time the stacks are refreshed...

Edit: Were your granted MP5 calculations taking Kings / MotW buff into account?

[Arcsecant]

This is overall a very powerful regen trinket. You will want to use it on cooldown as long as the stacks are maxed and the mana you get won't go to waste. Even now with holy concentration at 40% using it on cooldown nets more mp5 than not and when HC gets nerfed to 30% that gap will only widen. Not to mention the stacks are very easy to build. One PoH or CoH hitting 5 people will max the stacks so the 12 seconds ramp up time for it to break even is very forgiving.

It just irks me that there is no static intellect on it so you get no direct throughput whatsoever. So you might have to reforge some spirit off your gear to haste or mastery to keep the balance between regen and throughput.

[Tyleiran]

Yeah I use two static intellect with a proc spirit trinkets (heroic tear of blood and figurine: dream owl) and I struggled with figuring out if I would want to roll on this or not. In the end though having it allows you to just go get throughput somewhere else in your gear. The difference is that using a piece of gear without spirit on it to compensate for the lack of int on the trinket is not going to get you more int since you will just have more crit/haste/mastery on that piece instead.

In the end its a trade off between the extra regen you get and the difference between the int that you lose and the crit/haste/mastery that you gain.

[Crunkosaurus]

Now take into account that you're getting partial benefit as you build stacks one through five

Incorrect, 1 CoH before combat starts stacks both my static spirit trinkets instantly to 5 stacks, Like others have said.

Were your granted MP5 calculations taking Kings / MotW buff into account?

Nope, and my calculations were very incorrect regardless. They'd need to be redone, I was counting Mp1, not 5 (derp.)

I'm curious, does anyone know if you still get the 30 second downtime if you use the trinket on a friendly?

just go get throughput somewhere else in your gear

This. Having 2 proc'd static spirit trinket to build my haste and int up to compensate.

[Bigslick]

Incorrect, 1 CoH before combat starts stacks both my static spirit trinkets instantly to 5 stacks, Like others have said.

We're discussing in-combat usage decisions here, not pre-combat. The fact that a CoH landing on 5 targets fully stacks it does nothing to invalidate the fact that single stacks generated by singly delivered heals and hot ticks still offer benefit. Additionally, if a CoH or PoH will not actually apply productive healing to multiple targets, it would be a net loss of combat mana efficiency to spend that much mana to restack to full 'instantly' instead of using appropriate heals.

I'm curious, does anyone know if you still get the 30 second downtime if you use the trinket on a friendly?

Yes, you do. But generally if you're in a position where you're feeling comfortable donating that mana to a friendly target in need, you're probably going to be ok with the short term loss of spirit.

[ZippyDoodle]

So my fellow holy priest brethren, my question simply is this:

Is it better to not touch the use on this trinket (6420 mana and unable to stack static spirit from equip for 30 seconds) or use it on CD?

If my math is correct here is the information regarding it:

-Holy priests attain 1.3470337 mp5 per spirit (With Holy Concentration)
-693.722 static Mp5 from full equip stack (515 spirit total)
-In an average fight (5 minutes) you will receive:
-208,116 mana in 5 minutes without use.
-179,333 with use.

So unless my math is wrong which is entirely possible because I still use my fingers to count, I will continue to not touch that use. Anyone else get different numbers or have any arguments/insight?

Also I haven't crunched any numbers for the heroic version, so that might equate to a better turnout from the use. But I doubt it to be honest.

Useful post on Plusheal comparing all trinkets with math + numbers.

Can't link it yet D:

[Crunkosaurus]

We're discussing in-combat usage decisions here, not pre-combat

My post was misunderstood. All i'm implying is that ramp-up time for the spirit and keeping it up is completely irrelevant in my opinion. 1 CoH before a pull, get your stacks, drink up before combat and as long as you cast atleast 1 spell every what, 15 seconds? Then that spirit will not and should not diminish. (Situational of course)

[Bigslick]

My post was misunderstood. All i'm implying is that ramp-up time for the spirit and keeping it up is completely irrelevant in my opinion. 1 CoH before a pull, get your stacks, drink up before combat and as long as you cast atleast 1 spell every what, 15 seconds? Then that spirit will not and should not diminish. (Situational of course)

Sure, you'll want to have it stacked before entering combat. I'd assumed we were still discussing the relative worth of actually engaging the on-use function of the trinket versus keeping the static spirit boost while in combat, and which would produce more mana gain over time. The answer there is quite clear.

Here's the breakdown based on me sitting in SW:

Holy (2/2 HC) - no MotW / Kings
3305 MP5 (combat) w/ 0 stacks
3843 MP5 (combat) w/ 5 stacks
538 MP5 (combat) effective gain from trinket being fully stacked.
6420 Mana / 538 MP5 = 11.93 five-second intervals, or about 1 minute. The debuff is 30 seconds, so if I rebuild stacks within 30 seconds from when the debuff falls off I'm ahead of the game. Any partial stacking during this time extends the value of using the trinket further.

Holy (2/2 HC) - w/ MotW / Kings
3361 MP5 (combat) w/ 0 stacks
3912 MP5 (combat) w/ 5 stacks
551 MP5 (combat) effective gain from trinket being fully stacked.
6420 Mana / 551 MP5 = 11.65 five-second intervals, or about 58 seconds. The debuff is 30 seconds, so if I rebuild stacks within 28 seconds from when the debuff falls off I'm ahead of the game. Any partial stacking during this time extends the value of using the trinket further.

And for the sake of comprehensiveness...

Disc - no MotW / Kings
2385 MP5 (combat) w/ 0 stacks
2705 MP5 (combat) w/ 5 stacks
320 MP5 (combat) effective gain from trinket being fully stacked.
6420 Mana / 320 MP5 = 20.06 five-second intervals, or about 1m40s. The debuff is 30 seconds, so I have over a minute from when the debuff falls off to stay ahead. Any partial stacking during this time extends the value of using the trinket further.

Disc - w/ MotW / Kings
2418 MP5 (combat) w/ 0 stacks
2747 MP5 (combat) w/ 5 stacks
329 MP5 (combat) effective gain from trinket being fully stacked.
6420 Mana / 329 MP5 = 19.51 five-second intervals, or about 1m37s. The debuff is 30 seconds, so I have over a minute from when the debuff falls off to stay ahead. Any partial stacking during this time extends the value of using the trinket further.

TLDR: Using the trinket on CD will provide the greatest mana gain over time, provided it is not used at a point where some of the mana granted will be wasted due to putting you over max mana. The sole exception to this that I can think of would be ensuring your stacks are up at such time as a resto shaman drops mana tide, though mana tide returns will no longer be calculated with our spirit after 4.0.6 hits.

[ODDLAWL]

Jar + Arcane Torrent macro = love

[Deleted]

Jar + Arcane Torrent macro = love

Did i miss something? Isnt it a set mana return from the Jar, instead of x% from your base/max mana?

[Feroxine]

On a totally unrelated note, the proc animation on this trinket is ridiculously annoying, especially as a resto druid whereby it can proc several times a second.

[YankeePhan1234]

On a totally unrelated note, the proc animation on this trinket is ridiculously annoying, especially as a resto druid whereby it can proc several times a second.

Yeah the same thing happens with the Heart of Ignacious, you suddenly do quick random arm movements into the air, gets fairly annoying.