Just some TG vs SMF / hit vs crit numbers.

[quez]

I've done some testing the past hours on TG&SMF with hit or crit focused builds, thought i'd share my results with you guys. If anyone is interested that is

No raiding or crafting gear was used, essentially I used HC gear and the licence to kill trinket.
Here's my armory link: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...C3%B9ez/simple
Be aware that I constantly reforge/regem and try stuff out, so it probably looks really weird time to time.


All these tests were done on the HC dummy with only battle shout, sunder armor was not applied. 3 000 000 dmg per test
Priority used: HS(if battletrance is up)>CS(if RB cd < 3sec)>BT>CS(if RB cd >~3sec)>RB>HS(~+60rage)>Slam>Shout

Crit focused setup: 14,64%hit 17,40%crit 12,91mastery 4,91% haste

TGtest #1:10424 dps
TGtest #2:11040 dps
TGtest #3:10445 dps
TGtest #4:10820 dps
TGtest #5:10380 dps

Average TG dps: 10621

SMFtest #1:9940 dps
SMFtest #2:9554 dps
SMFtest #3:10702 dps
SMFtest #4:10638 dps
SMFtest #5:9720 dps

Average SMF DPS: 10110

Hit focused setup: 18.5%hit 14,91%crit 12,91mastery 4,91% haste
TGtest #1:9845 dps
TGtest #2:10505 dps
TGtest #3:9947 dps
TGtest #4:10295 dps
TGtest #5:9481 dps

Average DPS: 10014

I didn't do a SMF run with hit focused set up, but it should fall a bit behind TG.

I know that 5 tests per setup is far from what's required to make a good conclusion, I did this just so I could see how much of a difference there was between the different setups, do not take these results as if they are the absolute truth.

Also take RNG into account, there's a possibility that I got battle trance on every single of my 69 Bloodthirsts (1,4*10^-57 to be exact ).

[Tyrantangel]

This is about the same results I received when I tested out the crit spec. I also find that with raid buffs it scales better than the hit spec, and you'll see a large damage increase if you try it there. I don't want to spam your thread, but I can show you fight logs between fights of me spec'd for hit and for crit in 25m raids if desired. Gear about the same between attempts.

[quez]

This is about the same results I received when I tested out the crit spec. I also find that with raid buffs it scales better than the hit spec, and you'll see a large damage increase if you try it there. I don't want to spam your thread, but I can show you fight logs between fights of me spec'd for hit and for crit in 25m raids if desired. Gear about the same between attempts.

And on the PTR I found out that the benefit from going a crit build is even greater, now that heroic strike hits for less hitrating gets less desirable, since you can maintain your normal rotation with a minimum amount of hit.

Please do share your logs with us

[Tyrantangel]

I'll list them by encounter.

Magmaw - I screwed up this encounter slightly as crit, screwed up my timing and lost an opportunity for an extra DW. So if optimized the increase would be greater.
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/x7nx9...?s=6563&e=6875 (hit spec)
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/w5l3g...?s=6125&e=6439 (crit spec)

Malorak
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/x7nx9...?s=9039&e=9446(hit)
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/w5l3g...=10390&e=10740(crit)

Halfus Wyrmbreaker
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/x7nx9...?s=2898&e=3264(hit)
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/m2bc6...ne/?s=25&e=300(crit)

Twilight council
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/m2bc6...?s=7119&e=7521(hit)
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/f5kvn...?s=1673&e=2056(crit)

Cho'gall
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/f5kvn...?s=5234&e=5805(hit)
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/m2bc6...?s=8643&e=9238(crit)

Chimaeron
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/t...?s=8322&e=8709 (hit)
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/y...?s=2051&e=2447 (crit)

These were my stats between the encounters for hit/crit spec respectively.
Hit focused:
4% haste
20% hit
18% crit
~10 mastery

Crit Focused:
4% haste
14% hit
22% crit
~10 mastery

I also gained about 250 strength from dropping hit, gemming and enchanting primarily strength in the crit focused spec.

These are the best examples I can give without having too large of a gear difference or had a death that would distort the comparison. The majority of these logs only had a small upgrade from the crafted BoE belt to a hit/crit belt from conclave. If you have any questions from other encounters between the two weeks that I didn't list, feel free to ask. Didn't want my post to be huge, but listed a few of the major fights.

[Drunkenfinn]

I would not trust dummy tests, to be fair.

You gain Crit from raid-buffs. You dont gain Hit from raid-buffs.

However, I'm not saying Crit is not an extremely good stat for us.

[Deleted]

One of the often given reasons for stacking hit is that it evens out rage and makes your dps smoother/less spiky. Looking at Tyrants logs it would seem this is not the case and infact crit gives a smoother overall dps.

[kopasetic]

I would not trust dummy tests, to be fair.

You gain Crit from raid-buffs. You dont gain Hit from raid-buffs.

However, I'm not saying Crit is not an extremely good stat for us.

It's not an extremely good stat, but it is a good one to have.

[Tyrantangel]

It's not an extremely good stat, but it is a good one to have.

According to my testing, crit is a good stat to have...in fact besides str it's our best stat after 8% hit.

@Uthyr That's what I experienced for the most part. The thing is with raid buffed there are a lot of augmentations to your dps that one boosts crit's benefits, and two makes rage regeneration easier. 10% melee attack speed is a general buff most raids have, and what I had in those meters. Hit's only bonus is help with rage, and if I can do slightly better on the dummy with crit, to be honest it just blows hit priority out of the water in a 25m raid.

Hopefully this will bring a decent discussion between the two specs, or at the very least, someone who focused hit and has numbers to back up his claim.

[Angy]

Tyrantangel, thanks for the logs. Could you post hit and crit logs for Chimaeron? ( As it's the only one that we move rarely and feud stacking up can be done with heroic leap all the time-so no dps loss)

I am excited to see crit focused gear beating hit gear on all the logs although I am aware that RNG might have chosen crit's side in all those logs.

Also quez had given us some examples aswell but with kinda low gear. I would like to know what all your combat stats are aswell in both gear setups-if you can of course

Edit: could you also put your stats to those 10 logs you already posted? I really want to know how much crit and hit got traded between each other.

[Tyrantangel]

Tyrantangel, thanks for the logs. Could you post hit and crit logs for Chimaeron? ( As it's the only one that we move rarely and feud stacking up can be done with heroic leap all the time-so no dps loss)

I am excited to see crit focused gear beating hit gear on all the logs although I am aware that RNG might have chosen crit's side in all those logs.

Also quez had given us some examples aswell but with kinda low gear. I would like to know what all your combat stats are aswell in both gear setups-if you can of course

Edit: could you also put your stats to those 10 logs you already posted? I really want to know how much crit and hit got traded between each other.

I'd love to post logs for Chimaeron, but it was the first fight I tested with crit focused, however I can compare the two older weeks since they're close in gear. As for my stat changes, I'll list them. These stats include precision, just so that's clarified.

Hit focused:
4% haste
20% hit
18% crit
~10 mastery

Crit Focused:
4% haste
14% hit
22% crit
~10 mastery

I also gained about 250 strength from dropping hit, gemming and enchanting primarily strength in the crit focused spec.

EDIT: I added the chimaeron logs to my original post with the logs.

[Angy]

I'd love to post logs for Chimaeron, but it was the first fight I tested with crit focused, however I can compare the two older weeks since they're close in gear.

I will be satisfied by seeing only the crit-hit values of your crit and hit focused gear sets on the Magmaw, Maloriak, Halfus, Council, Cho'gall logs you posted

[terrih91]

completley off topic but if thats the numbers fury is putting out atm i think i might stay arms. last night i did 2 tests of 3 mill dmg on the heroic dummy and was pulling 11-12k sustained atm i just think u miss too much as fury to really make a significant difference in the spec. perhaps in a later teir it will overshadow arms but right now in my guild im top 3 dps vs all the OP classes like mages balance druids and a surv hunter. as far as your numbers ar concerned i really dont see much of a diff its pretty even. GJ blizz u finally did it for once =P. (correct me if im wrong im a bit hungover from last night and trying to kill some time at work.)

[Tyrantangel]

completley off topic but if thats the numbers fury is putting out atm i think i might stay arms. last night i did 2 tests of 3 mill dmg on the heroic dummy and was pulling 11-12k sustained atm i just think u miss too much as fury to really make a significant difference in the spec. perhaps in a later teir it will overshadow arms but right now in my guild im top 3 dps vs all the OP classes like mages balance druids and a surv hunter. as far as your numbers ar concerned i really dont see much of a diff its pretty even. GJ blizz u finally did it for once =P. (correct me if im wrong im a bit hungover from last night and trying to kill some time at work.)

11-12k on a dummy is not that impressive, as fury on live I do 13.5-14k on a dummy relatively easily. Quez has a relatively low item level, at 346. So if you're anywhere in the 350s honestly comparing them doesn't do much justice. How are you top 3 in dps in your guild? Any meters to prove this? I'm guessing no. Honestly if an arms warrior is in the top3 damage on average in fights, your other dps is seriously slacking. This isn't calling you a bad player, but other classes should be significantly a head of you.

As for the results being 'close' I don't think I linked a meter where the gap wasn't at least 2k, if not greater. Each fight as crit I did roughly 10-15% more damage. That's a huge difference. Now if you were taking about Quez's numbers, on the dummy hit has the advantage cause there's no modifiers to stats. However, the crit focus gains much more benefits from being raid buffed, with str/crit being amplified as well as the attack speed to help with rage gen. If crit beats hit on the dummy, hit doesn't really stand a chance in a raid situation.

[Angy]

I'd love to post logs for Chimaeron, but it was the first fight I tested with crit focused, however I can compare the two older weeks since they're close in gear. As for my stat changes, I'll list them. These stats include precision, just so that's clarified.

Hit focused:
4% haste
20% hit
18% crit
~10 mastery

Crit Focused:
4% haste
14% hit
22% crit
~10 mastery

I also gained about 250 strength from dropping hit, gemming and enchanting primarily strength in the crit focused spec.

Thanks for all the info. I got few more questions to ask. Your meta is not the inc crit damage one I guess? since you say you gemmed differently.
I just did the same but could only try on dummy since this is an offday and got 1.5-2k more dps.

There is something else I wonder tho, did you aim for 8% hit?(I mean dropping it till 8%-I see you have 14% hit on crit focused gear set but that might just be because of the lack of items in your inventory without hit) I changed all my mastery-not needed expertise-haste into crit and left the "reforged into hit" pieces if that piece already has crit on it.
I'm not sure if I managed to describe what I did properly but I will also give an example :

Gift of Nadun with 127 haste+127 crit is reforged into 77haste+127crit+50hit
however
Licence to Slay 321 hit is reforged into 193 hit+128crit or the tier chest's haste reforged into hit.

[Tyrantangel]

Thanks for all the info. I got few more questions to ask. Your meta is not the inc crit damage one I guess? since you say you gemmed differently.
I just did the same but could only try on dummy since this is an offday and got 1.5-2k more dps.

There is something else I wonder tho, did you aim for 8% hit?(I mean dropping it till 8%-I see you have 14% hit on crit focused gear set but that might just be because of the lack of items in your inventory without hit) I changed all my mastery-not needed expertise-haste into crit and left the "reforged into hit" pieces if that piece already has crit on it.
I'm not sure if I managed to describe what I did properly but I will also give an example :

Gift of Nadun with 127 haste+127 crit is reforged into 77haste+127crit+50hit
however
Licence to Slay 321 hit is reforged into 193 hit+128crit or the tier chest's haste reforged into hit still.

I've gotten a decent amount of gear since those meters, here's an armory.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ntangel/simple

I got no problem answering questions, that's what forums are for, sharing concepts and knowledge. Now, about my meta, a lot of people see it and scratch their head. I use the 54 crit/1% spell reflect meta. This seems silly, but it lets me gem about 150 more strength easily into my gear. This far outweighs the 3% increased critical damage. If you're crit is floating as high as even 25%. The 3% critical damage is only going to give you a .75% damage increase. This isn't much at all, and the large amount of strength you can gem is superior.

As for the hit scenario, I dropped it fairly close, but gear right now even if you completely look against hit, wont let you go much less than 10-12%. When I first started testing and had less gear, I had 13.38% with precision on the dummy and I saw a boost in damage. Granted, this is not saying hit is a bad stat. Basically, in my testing it goes as follows 8% hit > 26exp > str >crit >hit (27%) > haste > mastery. Mastery and haste will probably switch after the patch, but on live that's basically how I prioritize my stats.

You reforged more or less how I did, basically if there's no crit on the piece I reforge to crit from haste/mastery (unless there's an expertise stat that puts me over 26, which then I reforge that). If there's crit on the piece, I reforge the haste/mastery to hit. If there's hit and crit on the piece, it's perfect how it is.

[Angy]

I've gotten a decent amount of gear since those meters, here's an armory.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ntangel/simple

I got no problem answering questions, that's what forums are for, sharing concepts and knowledge. Now, about my meta, a lot of people see it and scratch their head. I use the 54 crit/1% spell reflect meta. This seems silly, but it lets me gem about 150 more strength easily into my gear. This far outweighs the 3% increased critical damage. If you're crit is floating as high as even 25%. The 3% critical damage is only going to give you a .75% damage increase. This isn't much at all, and the large amount of strength you can gem is superior.

As for the hit scenario, I dropped it fairly close, but gear right now even if you completely look against hit, wont let you go much less than 10-12%. When I first started testing and had much less gear, I had 13.38% with precision on the dummy and I saw a boost in damage. Granted, this is not saying hit is a bad stat. Basically, in my testing it goes as follows 8% hit > 26exp > str >crit >hit (27%) > haste > mastery. Mastery and haste will probably switch after the patch, but on live that's basically how I prioritize my stats.

That's pretty much what I tried/thought. We also have similar gear but my armory is always in confusion with many different combos like showing prot spec-pvp gear, fury pve spec-prot gear, prot spec-pve fury gear blabla. -passed many times on axe and legs, aiming for tier legs and nefarian sword but they won't drop for sure-.--
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../angred/simple

[Helander]

Did you use the exact same rotation for TG and SMF?!

[Tyrantangel]

Did you use the exact same rotation for TG and SMF?!

It's not like SMF is competitive, sorry to say.

[Helander]

False, especially with the upcoming patch SMF is quite competative and in some cases i can see it out performing TG.

The rotations are radically different, one entails burning your CD's (TG) where the other involves pooling rage to maximize CS damage (SMF). TG loves RB SMF hates it..... if played properly SMF does quite respectable amounts of damage, its jus most people don't know the proper rotation.

[Tyrantangel]

False, especially with the upcoming patch SMF is quite competative and in some cases i can see it out performing TG.

The rotations are radically different, one entails burning your CD's (TG) where the other involves pooling rage to maximize CS damage (SMF). TG loves RB SMF hates it..... if played properly SMF does quite respectable amounts of damage, its jus most people don't know the proper rotation.

Find me some people on WoL that ranks consistently as SMF and I'll agree with you. Or give me numbers or some sort of proof to justify yourself, since SMF is considered largely sub par to TG. As of now, there is absolutely no reason for SMF to beat TG. Until you give some evidence, there's no reason to give the thought credit.