Bane of Havoc

[Morath]

I agree with the basic argument being made here that BoH is too powerful an ability in its current form for as little effort as it requires to use it. Changing the duration to something more reasonable, on the order of 30s to 1 minute would go a ways towards bringing Destruction's ability to spread damage in line with Affliction's. I would go farther even and suggest that its range be restricted in some manner, perhaps that it not proc if the caster is more than 40-60 yards away. It seems reasonable that if you can't hit the target then you shouldn't get to "spell cleave" it either.

Just to be clear I don't want to see Destruction nerfed, I do play the spec regularly and have posted top 10 parses on current content using it (as well as Affliction), and I hope with everyone else here that 4.06 doesn't see the nice balance between the three specs disrupted.

I look at your logs and it is here, yes BoH can be strong on some encounters, but Chogal 2,6% damage, thats realy soo strong, and Maloriak have similar numbers Magmaw with head exploit it is 10,9% damage, and head take 100% damage taken bonus. On every fight where is more adds you take Affli, because what? Because Soul Swap is stronger.

What I say before, on 70% of fights you have not chance do something like 15% damage bonus from this spell, and have no chance use 5 minute duration. Everyone say "oh good, 15% damage for 5 minutes with one GCD?! OP" yes, sure, give us every fight when we can use this and it maybe will be OP...

[bigjenk]

This is exactly what I said to you in the other thread. You're angry that you're being beaten on the dps meter due to a perk, or mechanic and are asking for nerfs to your own class without grounds or well founded arguments.

BoH is what warlocks have asked for for many years: an ability that allows us to dps a secondary target without a massive damage loss on our primary one. Compared to cleaves and similar abilities in game, BoH is perfectly fine.

Except they nerfed most classes cleave ablities to the ground while buffing others(combat rogues as well) it really makes no sense the huge disparity of some classes on a multitarget fight compared to single target.

[Runc]

I'd prefer it to work a bit like hunter's misdirect - chuck it on a secondary target and your next 3 casts will also hit that for 100% damage. Have that on a 30 sec CD. Much more thought to that in terms of not wasting the casts on rubbish, watching aggro, etc. It would also help destro regain a bit of burst, 'cause at the moment it seems about the least bursty of the three specs which seems a bit wrong to me (but inevitable when the potentially most powerful talent gives a trickle of dps over a 5 minute duration).

[Deathnote]

Yeah, really sorry that warlocks are the only class that can effortlessly do something to another target with little effort. They should really fix this.
Or maybe they can buff other classes. That'd be cool.
Maybe they should give shamans a chain lightning ability or something and make it strong enough to include in their single target rotation as well. Maybe add some decreases to DKs to jump around even though you're only attacking one target. Maybe we could give druids some stars to fall on multiple targets that doesn't make them channel. Maybe give some other classes some cleaves and such that won't require them to change targets.

Oh wait...that's right. Warlocks were pretty much the only class w/o this sort of mechanic. The difference being for us is that we have to actually cast it onto the 2nd target instead of having it splash onto it. Is it a bit OP because it doesn't have a range limit on it? Maybe? Or maybe it's just unique. Do I think I should have to go demo for heroic halfus just to get the whelps down in a decent amount of time and do 55k dps for the fight? No, I probably shouldn't have to but every specc right now is pretty balanced and have their fights that they excel at better than other speccs.

And also if you use it on Tron Defense system then you should probably be shot in the face with your own chaos bolt. Last time I looked at the WOL reports there's a demo lock on there who's pet did 25k dps during whelps on Halfus and over the course of the fight the felguard provided 11.x k effective dps. Wait...hold on, your pet alone just increased your dps by how much? Lets say a felguard does 2k on a normal fight since I'm not sure what it does. That's still a 9k dps increase over what it normally does. And how do you achiv this dps increase? You just tell your pet to attack.

To sum things up. Every spell has it's proper time and place. On some fights one spell may be AMAZING but other fights it's trash. So what? It's nice to have a fight that you know you can excel at. Kinda like Professor Putricide. Destro could walk all over about anyone on that fight. Didn't really have a special ability that gave us the advantage but it just worked. Just because they were good at a fight or two doesn't mean the whole class has to get nerfed because of it. I have been more than impressed at the balance of the warlock classes this expansion.

[Velocet]

to be fair, to max your dps on an encounter like valiona + theralion where you bane of havoc the dragon in the air, you'd gain a considerable amount of dps by keeping immolate and corruption on it. so multi target fights as destruction aren't completely faceroll

[Deleted]

Oh i see. The ISF whiners felt all warm and dizzy inside for killing off ISF from two of the three specs, and weakening it for destro. Now that their own spec lost directly 15% haste due to their cries, and the feeling of glorious victory over ISF started to fade, they want to finish off Havoc this time. What next? Conflagrate is too op, make it a 2 sec cast time? Guys, why are you doing this to your own class?

[deloclvb]

So 1 or 2 things about warlocks are effortless (say BoH and CoE). We press 1 button every 5 mins. Oh wait, did you forget the amount of other curses/debuffs/timers we need to look out for?

how about we think about how complicated our rotations are already compared to other classes? How many more things we have to look out for and how many more buttons to press. Doesn't that somehow make up for the seemingly long duration and effortless-ness of these spells?What's wrong with having 1 or 2 easy thing? It's not like it is making dps as a warlock a faceroll. ISF was so "difficult" and "unnatural", and now that's going to be removed, BoH this is too effortless? I fail to see how shortening the duration ( more GCDs = nerf) is going to balance destro with the other two specs significantly. Every spec currently has it's own mechanic of dealing with multi targe fights.

[Deleted]

World of log reports:

Method vs Omnitron Defence System - result? 3x Destruction warlocks, 4th, 7th and 9th on the meters (all using Bane of Havoc)
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/9.../?s=881&e=1169


Paragon vs Nefarian - result? 1x Destruction warlock, 4th on the meters (using Bane of Havoc)
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/l...=25221&e=25753

everyone wanting to nerf BoH needs to open their eyes and realise that this spell isn't making us overpowered its making at least one warlock spec viable in these kinds of fights.

[Jessicka]

Oh i see. The ISF whiners felt all warm and dizzy inside for killing off ISF from two of the three specs, and weakening it for destro. Now that their own spec lost directly 15% haste due to their cries, and the feeling of glorious victory over ISF started to fade, they want to finish off Havoc this time. What next? Conflagrate is too op, make it a 2 sec cast time? Guys, why are you doing this to your own class?

I fail to see what the total failure of design of Improved Soul Fire in it's original incarnation as an inverse execute ability only useful against a target above 80% health, which could only be fixed in time for Cataclysm's launch by way of making the talent massively overbudget in relation to comparable 2 point top tier talents has to do with anything I've said.

World of log reports:

Method vs Omnitron Defence System - result? 3x Destruction warlocks, 4th, 7th and 9th on the meters (all using Bane of Havoc)
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/9.../?s=881&e=1169


Paragon vs Nefarian - result? 1x Destruction warlock, 4th on the meters (using Bane of Havoc)
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/l...=25221&e=25753

everyone wanting to nerf BoH needs to open their eyes and realise that this spell isn't making us overpowered its making at least one warlock spec viable in these kinds of fights.

I don't see how reducing the duration to 1 minute would make any difference to the Omnitron fight, since you need to switch between each golem with that level of frequency anyway.

Furthermore, I don't see why this one talent should be what is making this one spec viable for these kinds of fights. In the one sense it is overpowered in that it requires zero effort to implement, and situationally rediculously so. Yet on the other hand, it's barely adequate in other circumstances.

Now, TobiasX suggested changing it a bit to make it more engaging by, in a similar manner to Beacon by providing some kind of benefit when you attacked a mob with it on. Then came all the tears about Living Bomb, and other classes splash damage. Furthermore, someone else suggested making it the 31 pointer, since Chaos Bolt is a bag of shite.

So how about this? Make it the 31 pointer, have it last 1 minute, have it do it's transfer as it does now - but in addition to this, when attacking a mob with BoH, it causes 5% (or something like that) of the damage you do to splash onto targets within 6 yards or so?

[Deleted]

What I meant was that if its not causing guilds such as Method and Paragon to have locks leading the meters because of this spell, then its not overpowered.

As for making it more engaging, either you'd lose dps from the extra GCD that a short duration BoH would bring or you wouldn't notice it at all since most fights don't have two targets up for 5 minutes anyway, I can only think of Valiona and Theralion.

In fact this type of spell requires you to actually be aware of what damage you are doing to your secondary target. With the Omnitron defence system, you need to be aware of when the shield is down and immediately stick your BoH on it, then switch it to the next one that drops the shield etc. For Ascendant council, you need to be aware of the percentages of each boss and remove it so that your 15% doesn't accidentally trigger a phase change at the wrong time. (unlike dots you can't just wait for it to time out when 'stop dps' is called)

Just because it last for 5 minutes doesn't mean you don't have to think about it.

[nocturnus]

"Just 15%"
you seem to think it's fine for 1 spell to increase your total damage done by 15% for the next 5 minutes as long as there is more than 1 target involved in the fight.

This is your problem. This is what bothers you. The damage meters. You think it's unfair that you can't compete for the nr 1 position as easily, if another warlock is using BoH on a target at range. I bet you wouldn't even care about BoH if its total sum wasn't calculated under one log.

I bet you were whining about melee cleaves in WoTLK too right? How you couldn't beat warriors on dps because they could hit more than one hitbox simultaneously. When someone showed you you did more damage on the boss, you stomped your feet, shook your fists in the air and cried: "I don't care I want to win on recount!"

I apologize for the sarcasm, but jess and tobias, you really sound like sour meter-losers to me.

Your solution is ludicrous too. You want to make an ability tedious? Cause that's what reducing its time span will do. It will not make it more fun, or more challenging in any way. It will just make it annoying. You still haven't explained why you think Beacon of Light is fine. The only, poorly prepared attempt, was saying the paladin is rewarded for interacting with the beaconed target. How does this mechanic make beacon less powerful?

If you're suggesting to do the same with BoH I'll support it all the way. I would love to be rewarded for interacting with my havoced target. Wouldn't this make BoH even more powerful though? Aren't you guys whining about BoH being too 'powerful'? Let me check:

5 minutes for a single global cooldown spell, which throws that much damage at 'something else' regardless of range or any other mechanics feels a little excessive.

Well whaddya know, you did indeed suggest it's overpowered! Yet, you suddenly want to reward us for interacting with it, without changing the damage. In other words, you now want BoH to be even better:

have it last 1 minute, have it do it's transfer as it does now - but in addition to this, when attacking a mob with BoH, it causes 5% (or something like that) of the damage you do to splash onto targets within 6 yards or so?

Make up your freaking mind. Do you think it's too strong or do you think it needs a mechanic that increases its use?

Mages, druids, shaman, dks etc... have WAY more powerful 'spell cleaves' that are applied automatically and these *BADWORD* are complaining about their own class. Ridiculous.

Maybe they should give shamans a chain lightning ability or something and make it strong enough to include in their single target rotation as well. Maybe add some deseases to DKs to jump around even though you're only attacking one target. Maybe we could give druids some stars to fall on multiple targets that doesn't make them channel. Maybe give some other classes some cleaves and such that won't require them to change targets.

I loved this by the way

[dredlocks]

As looking over logs for certain fights, I dont think bane of havok makes or breaks a player. Sure it helps on certain fights, but if you go look at all the fights, destro is not always on top. Demo and Aff are very good and compete if not better, every fight is diffrent, and also depends on what the raid leader assigns you to do.

[andromalia]

I don't get all this useless on Al'Akir crap. Honestly do you really think BoH is useless when wailing on a spark in p2? It's not outstanding on the fight but it's a far cry from useless.

[Nfariessence]

It's a situational spell, and when the situation calls for using it, it behaves very well. For the OP who says "just reduce duration to 30 seconds, no dps impact at all!" I'm not going to argue the difference between 1 GCD over 300 seconds vs. 10 GCD over 300 seconds --- cause that's not what happens. What really happens is you make it be 10 times you have to cast it to get the benefit of 1 time now, which is incredibly difficult/annoying in many encounters and outright impossible in others. What inevitably happens is that you miss an application or get it back up with either significant gaps or at a much-higher-than-1-GCD opportunity cost.

Think about it this way: If they nerfed CoE so that it was a 10 second duration, but buffed another spell of yours by 3% to make up the additional 30 GCD's of lost DPS time, would you be a happier player? On paper and sims it might equal out to be equivalent dps, but I guarantee in game you won't have 100% uptime any more and your game play (and raid) will suffer significantly.

Warlocks need to stop arguing vociferously for self-nerfs. Take a page from our blue brethren, mages, and make a case for outrageously ludicrous buffs and then complain when they're merely ridiculous.

[gualdhar]

I fail to see what the total failure of design of Improved Soul Fire in it's original incarnation as an inverse execute ability only useful against a target above 80% health, which could only be fixed in time for Cataclysm's launch by way of making the talent massively overbudget in relation to comparable 2 point top tier talents has to do with anything I've said.

While true, I don't think that its an apt comparison. ISF in its current iteration is different mainly because it completely screws with haste scaling. It was easy for warlocks to reach haste soft cap in the lowest tier of content, something unheard of until now, and it's use actually penalized us during bloodlust phases, where ISF didn't stack, and a badly timed Emp Imp proc left us hanging for 10 seconds while we waited for the ICD to be up. And watching it become a requirement for other specs over and above useful first and second tier talents in the other trees was a bit much.

Furthermore, I don't see why this one talent should be what is making this one spec viable for these kinds of fights. In the one sense it is overpowered in that it requires zero effort to implement, and situationally rediculously so. Yet on the other hand, it's barely adequate in other circumstances.

I don't think *one* talent should make us viable in this stuff either, but the fact remains that destro dps has been balanced around it. Its hardly bringing us to the top of the dps meters, unless our gear would have put us there anyway. And has been noted, in every fight that utilizes bane of havoc, its also a dps increase for us to dot up everything in the room, exactly like affliction, except we don't get a nifty spell that does it for us automatically. (And I'm not asking for soul swap to be removed!)

Now, TobiasX suggested changing it a bit to make it more engaging by, in a similar manner to Beacon by providing some kind of benefit when you attacked a mob with it on. Then came all the tears about Living Bomb, and other classes splash damage. Furthermore, someone else suggested making it the 31 pointer, since Chaos Bolt is a bag of shite.

So how about this? Make it the 31 pointer, have it last 1 minute, have it do it's transfer as it does now - but in addition to this, when attacking a mob with BoH, it causes 5% (or something like that) of the damage you do to splash onto targets within 6 yards or so?

At that point, I could just spam shadowflame and shadowfury like I am right now, and probably do more damage than the change you're proposing. and CB isn't that much of a "bag of shite" as you put it - while its not as groundbreaking as the 31 points of some other specs (Howling Blast, Metamorphosis, Living Bomb, etc) it works perfectly with destro's rotation. It works with Soul Leech and Fire and Brimstone, has a cast time that can beat GCD when used with Backdraft, and if blizzard actually decides to make bosses with decent absorption/resistance effects it would be even more useful.

[tblood]

Hey guys! I'm pretty new to the forums and to being a Warlock, but I felt I should throw in my two-cents on this topic. I just recently switched my main to my Warlock and have been playing around with the specs and spending a lot of time in raids, heroics, and on the target dummies. At the moment, I'm using Destro as my main spec and have liked the play style for the most part (is a little clunky from time to time and not as smooth as Affliction). One of the abilities I really, really like is Bane of Havoc. I think it's a great addition to Destro in it's current form.

To the point though... My Rogue was my main for the past couple years and I knew the class very well. One of the most annoying and difficult times that I had playing the class was in Naxx 2.0 as Mutilate (after the HaT debacle lol). At the time the spec was very demanding and required 100% of your focus to get everything out of it. The single biggest reason for this was Hunger for Blood. The talent was god awful and a pain to manage on top of everything else required by the spec. It went through several iterations and it's time on target ranged from 30sec to 1 min.

Now, as demanding as I thought playing a rogue at a high level was during that time, it doesn't come close to what Warlocks have to do in order to put up good numbers. Of all the classes I've played Warlocks are the most demanding AND the most engaging. There's rarely any downtime and you constantly have to put forth a decent amount of effort to reach the class' potential. I can't see how you could possibly want Warlocks to be more engaging.

Trust me... Reducing the time on target of Bane of Havoc to 30sec or 1min would be a royal pain. The talent adds a lot of flavor and gives the spec a couple twists to play with on certain fights, but it would lose a lot of it's luster if it became another short debuff to manage on top of everything else. This is one talent that I think Blizzard nailed. Rarely does the ability last it's full duration. It feels like I'm swapping it's target more often than it lasts, but I'm happy that I don't have to constantly keep an eye on it once it's on the intended target.

Jess, bottom line... You play Demo as your main spec. Great. I love that spec as well. But, your arguments for nerfing(yes, reducing the time of BoH would be a nerf) an ability in a different spec don't follow any logical conclusions. Warlocks are incredibly engaging and demand the player constantly pay attention. Destro's damage as a result of BoH is not through the roof compared to the other specs. Each of which have their own niche on specific fights. Most importantly, BoH is not a Bane to the specs play style (see what I did there!). Mark my words, if you got your way and the talent was reduced to 30sec or 1min, it would go the way of Hunger for Blood and would become more of an annoyance and hindrance to the spec. Leave it be and worry about your favorite spec's current problems.

PS, nice to meet the lock community!

[Moonlapse]

What really happens is you make it be 10 times you have to cast it to get the benefit of 1 time now, which is incredibly difficult/annoying in many encounters and outright impossible in others. What inevitably happens is that you miss an application or get it back up with either significant gaps or at a much-higher-than-1-GCD opportunity cost.

Actually, smart Warlocks would just macro it and wouldn't miss a beat.

Basically, you need to figure out what you want to accomplish with this ability. Do you want to nerf the damage? Then reduce the damage on BoH to 10-12%. Do you want it to be less useful in every single fight? Then stop designing multi-target, non-AOE fights.

[ynkesfan2003]

First and foremost, I cannot believe you seriously reposted this Jess...

Actually, smart Warlocks would just macro it and wouldn't miss a beat.

Basically, you need to figure out what you want to accomplish with this ability. Do you want to nerf the damage? Then reduce the damage on BoH to 10-12%. Do you want it to be less useful in every single fight? Then stop designing multi-target, non-AOE fights.

Jess said exactly what should happen the to the spell, that being reduce the duration to 30 - 60 seconds (I personally say 60 with a 20 second CD). That isn't a nerf except that you lose 4 GCD every 5 minutes (OH MY GAWD!!!). Honestly I think this is worth it for making the spell actually something that you think about, I think it's unfair to every caster class in the game that Destro gets a free personal CoE without having to do something for it.

To whoever it was that said that affliction has Soulswap, which is balanced, I will put this into perspective for you.

BoH - 15% damage for the next 5 minutes on a second target.

Soulswap - I posted the logic for this on the other thread (the warlock 4.0.6 dps thread that gherkin started) somewhere around page 14, but it winds up being around the damage of 1 SB every 10 seconds once you take into consideration the fact that a warlock can multidot without using Soulswap.

Take that last part as you will, I'm merely presenting it as facts.

[gherkin]

If they release a content patch where 10/12 bosses don't have two+ targets for you to nuke, this entire problem goes away. Think about it this way: if there were only 6 bosses that it was useful on, would you still feel the same way? What if this number was 4? If this was ICC Heroics, Havoc would be worth less dps than Doom on almost every single encounter.

Make sure any ideas you have plan for the future content as well as the current content.

[latzko]

Stop QQing, reroll destro instead and enjoy it while it's still top spec.