Holy: Crusader Strike for HP? (And other playstyle advice)

[ChromWolf]

So I know this is possible already, and it sounds like even with the mana "nerfs" to spells like HL, Crusader Strike seems to me as a mana equivalent to what used to be HL your Beacon x3, LoD (pre-nerf). I personally use it rather a lot.

My question is this: Is this a viable playstyle? ...Namely, to stand in melee and Crusader Strike for HP for fights where a LoD or a quick HS + WoG on the tank would be helpful for mana conservation/zippy healing, in amongst all the judging I can do? Is it something I should work to get in the habit of, or do those of you in raids not really stand in melee at all?

My gear is still such that I'm not even solidly doing heroics yet, so I haven't even thought about raiding yet. My SP isn't really where I want it at just above 5k, while my spirit may even be a little on the heavy side at just over 1800. Three words summarize my paladin: I NEED GEAR. So really, I'm looking for advice on how I should be training myself to play as I get said gear, and to avoid any bad habits now rather than have to train myself not to do them later. I was told I should rely more on HL by another holy pally using his ret offspec in a heroic (his SP is about 1k higher than mine, and I imagine he's got a goof 10k on me), and rely less on DL/FoL. I think I hardly cast FoL anymore, but I do like DL for the HP and big healing it can pull off in a pinch. I'm not really having mana issues--none at all (ending at full mana) on trash, and never really OOMing on boss fights. I'll get low, but if it happens I just lax off a bit and judge more, and pull through. The thing is, I'm trying to decide if it's actually okay to be relying on DL (and to a lesser extent, FoL) as much as I do is "okay" in that I'm also using my HS and CS for HP, and utilizing it for either of the two HP spells.

Is HP something raiding paladins are going after, or is the playstyle more similar to Wrath "spamming" (well, relative to the HPS and HPM of this expansion of course) something my gear just isn't allowing quite yet?

Thoughts? I am "doing it wrong" so to speak? Just which spells tend to top your three most used heals?

[slinx]

It's a good idea, but I don't see it as much throughput. You will be saving mana, but healing less. Depends on the encounter. If the boss is doing aoe damage or something then no, but if its a fight where you can throw in a cheap cs strike here and there then you could probably use it. I would say that its not blizzards design and they wouldn't want you to do this, although smitehealing.. but anyway, I think you could get away with it when there isnt much healing needed but I would work on perfecting the right playstyle without using crusader strike. For hard bosses anyway.

[Dalahn]

A friend of mine started using this strategy as soon as the holy light nerf came live. I think it's a good tactic atleast in heroics, you can also keep hitting in melee with your seal to generate more mana. Seems to work for him.

[TheJellyTouch]

I do this on Nef. Especially p2. Constant heavy aoe dmg. Can LoD almost constantly this way. I'll work it into other fights too, but on that one it has an obvious advantage.

[GLRockwell]

I did this a lot in the old world dungeons (I also used Holy Shock offensively), but I had to stop by the time I started doing the WotLK dungeons because of how quickly the damage levels ramped up. I just couldn't afford the global cooldowns anymore. It's even worse in Cata when mana efficiency goes down the toilet and damage levels rise even further. By then, all I was doing was healing, judging SoI as often as possible and praying the tank could keep aggro.

[OnlineSamantha]

It depends on whether you need extra healing or extra mana conservation.

[stryla]

Any fight where its safe/viable for me to stand in melee, and when i have the spare gcd (ie. nobody is going to die in the next 5 seconds) I will use crusader strike. I also judge on cooldown (when i can safely) for the mana return. The other benefit of healing from melee is if your set up to auto attack the boss when your not casting, you can get some mana return on melee swings from seal of insight.

[Simca]

I don't Judge often or use Crusader Strike. I instead time my Potion of Concentration and Divine Plea if I need it (usually don't), and just heal like usual. I'm always at 10-12k HPS this way, and I'm not wasting my time with abilities that don't heal people.

Light of Dawn isn't even that useful a lot of the time in 10-mans, only in certain areas, and we run 2 Holy Paladins and a Holy Priest, so any damage when grouped up is instantly healed just via double Holy Radiance + Holy Priest spells.

I've never, never, ever ran out of mana and thought "Damn, I wish I was Crusader Striking the boss". It's "Damn, I wish I'd called for a single Hymn of Hope tick during the Dazzling Destruction so we could tie in our Divine Pleas and Lay on Hands each other for a huge mana gain." (Well, I've actually never ran out of mana on Valiona and Theralion period except one time when 4 people died for dumb reasons, but yeah, you get the idea.)

So, it might be a viable playstyle, and it certainly seems popular on these forums, but it isn't anywhere near required. I'd argue it is outright un-useful in 10-mans in the content I've seen (around half of the raiding bosses so far).

[ChromWolf]

Some EXCELLENT feedback. It sounds somewhat polarized as to who likes it and who doesn't. It's not that I'm always doing it absolutely whenever I can (as I still need to do with Judgement with the gear level I'm at---which is to say, no where NEAR that of Simca, in that I'm just starting my heroics career essentially); mostly, it's just something else I do to get that 3rd (maaaaybe 2nd and 3rd) charge of HP rather than two DL's on the beacon or waiting for HS to come off CD if the proc didn't effectively negate its CD. It's certainly not for healing output, I think that much is clear. In my mind, it's all about mana efficiency, since I rack up 3 HP charges more quickly for a mana-free heal using something that costs less than HL. Mana efficiency at its finest in my opinion, which I suspect is why those who have sworn by it seem to.

It sounds like Simca pretty much never uses this. Meanwhile, it sounds like TheJellyTouch *does* use it on certain fights to great effect; I mention these two posters as they're both mentioning raid content. The rest of the posts sounded like they were split pretty evenly as well.

It sounds like especially in heroics it's "okay to use" (rather than something I should necessarily always do), but that maybe in raids I should be careful of relying on it too much, perhaps excepting certain fights/mechanics. It seems to me to be a great idea for something to cast when there's just not a lot of damage going on in order to be able to efficiently heal when damage suddenly does happen (trash pulls especially, but even on just heroics bosses, for example). But I can already imagine people will reply to this saying "if you're not casting anything, cast HL." Maybe even that's wrong, but that's generally the talk I'm picking up from fellow Holy Pallies in guild, and the forums. Certainly nothing we should rely on to the exclusion of all else, but efficient and at least some healing output nonetheless.

To pit the two methods against each other, is this a failing in my playstyle, generally speaking? If I'm standing there not doing much, should I be opting to spam HL (in that using CS for HP is "wrong")? ...or is it merely a playstyle choice of "CS for HP" vs. "Spam HL"? Will this be different for raiding than it is in heroics? It sounds like most say it's a playstyle choice (and one I may not be able to continue once our guild does finally start raiding), but I'm still picking up a hint or leaning towards "Spam HL". Thoughts?

[Kadas]

Benefit
+ Mana from melee
+ Holy power from Crusader strike, if needed
+ Talent points that don't need to be spent in Improved Judgment
+ Tiny amounts of extra damage on the boss

Cost
- GCD's
- Increased movement
- survivability in melee

In the end, too many of our mechanics lend us to be in melee range to avoid it. If you're there getting mana and holy radiancing, etc. you might as well grab an extra holy Power when you need it. Crusader Strike is simply a faster, cheaper filler option than Holy Light.
if a fight is causing too much damage/movement for melee or just isn't very mana-intensive then by all means stay at range.

[Simca]

Some EXCELLENT feedback. It sounds somewhat polarized as to who likes it and who doesn't. It's not that I'm always doing it absolutely whenever I can (as I still need to do with Judgement with the gear level I'm at---which is to say, no where NEAR that of Simca, in that I'm just starting my heroics career essentially); mostly, it's just something else I do to get that 3rd (maaaaybe 2nd and 3rd) charge of HP rather than two DL's on the beacon or waiting for HS to come off CD if the proc didn't effectively negate its CD. It's certainly not for healing output, I think that much is clear. In my mind, it's all about mana efficiency, since I rack up 3 HP charges more quickly for a mana-free heal using something that costs less than HL. Mana efficiency at its finest in my opinion, which I suspect is why those who have sworn by it seem to.

It sounds like Simca pretty much never uses this. Meanwhile, it sounds like TheJellyTouch *does* use it on certain fights to great effect; I mention these two posters as they're both mentioning raid content. The rest of the posts sounded like they were split pretty evenly as well.

It sounds like especially in heroics it's "okay to use" (rather than something I should necessarily always do), but that maybe in raids I should be careful of relying on it too much, perhaps excepting certain fights/mechanics. It seems to me to be a great idea for something to cast when there's just not a lot of damage going on in order to be able to efficiently heal when damage suddenly does happen (trash pulls especially, but even on just heroics bosses, for example). But I can already imagine people will reply to this saying "if you're not casting anything, cast HL." Maybe even that's wrong, but that's generally the talk I'm picking up from fellow Holy Pallies in guild, and the forums. Certainly nothing we should rely on to the exclusion of all else, but efficient and at least some healing output nonetheless.

To pit the two methods against each other, is this a failing in my playstyle, generally speaking? If I'm standing there not doing much, should I be opting to spam HL (in that using CS for HP is "wrong")? ...or is it merely a playstyle choice of "CS for HP" vs. "Spam HL"? Will this be different for raiding than it is in heroics? It sounds like most say it's a playstyle choice (and one I may not be able to continue once our guild does finally start raiding), but I'm still picking up a hint or leaning towards "Spam HL". Thoughts?

I'm nothing amazing, so I hope my post doesn't come off that way. Just an average Holy Paladin in an average 10-man guild.

But I do agree that it probably a playstyle choice and it also isn't always an option. My guild has 2 Holy Paladins and 1 Holy Priest. We can't afford to have -both- Holy Paladins sit with the melee on 90% of the fights, so at least one of us has to be ranged. Also, our raid composition has 2 melee and 3 ranged, so Light of Dawn is actually usually more effective in the ranged group than the melee.

Maybe my philosophy will change once we face Chimaeron (should be this weekend) or Nefarian (probably a 1-2 weeks from now), but right now I just don't see enough cases to justify it.

Benefit
+ Mana from melee
+ Holy power from Crusader strike, if needed
+ Talent points that don't need to be spent in Improved Judgment (Improved Judgement is optional anyway)
+ Tiny amounts of extra damage on the boss

Cost
- GCD's
- Lower Healing on non-AoE fights, especially in 10-man
- situational based on raid composition
- Increased movement
- survivability in melee (but we do have Protector of the Innocent healing a lot of this)

In the end, too many of our mechanics lend us to be in melee range to avoid it. If you're there getting mana and holy radiancing, etc. you might as well grab an extra holy Power when you need it. Crusader Strike is simply a faster, cheaper filler option than Holy Light.
if a fight is causing too much damage/movement for melee or just isn't very mana-intensive then by all means stay at range.

Bold is stuff I added

I don't talent Improved Judgment either, by the way. I run http://wowtal.com/#k=terZRwik.aei.paladin.RoWb5t to maximize healing at the cost of utility. I will find my way to get into the 15 yard range every minute (I usually stand as the closest ranged and fire Light of Dawn backwards anyway; other healers cover the melee).

Magmaw: I judge the worms.
Omnitron: I'll judge Arcanotron from his puddle most of the time, and the times he isn't up, since there are two bosses at varying ranges from each other and the room isn't that big, I'm usually within 5 yards of the 15 yard range on one of them - not a big deal.
Maloriak: I stand at 15 yards, or if I absolutely have to move somewhere (e.g. Consuming Flames), I'll judge an add.
Halfus: See Omnitron - there are multiple bosses, I'm usually within 5 yards of being in range of one of them to Judge.
Valiona and Theralion: I stand at 15 yards in both phases. In the first phase, this helps me move for Flames faster, and in the second phase, it keeps our ranged kite closer and gives the person with Engulfing Magic the 35-40 yard range behind us to continue boss DPS with the debuff, which is huge. I always recommend standing at 15 yards on Theralion.

Blessed Life is situational, sure, but there are enough fights that constantly ping you with random damage in Cataclysm (like literally, every single fight) that the talent is worth it to me. And this is coming from a very, very big Pursuit of Justice advocate in early Wrath (before Ulduar when Divine Sacrifice was made amazing). I just feel like I can't get it without literally throwing points away.

[Galith]

Like others have said, it's a good cheaper way to generate holy power faster for more LoD's for high raid damage moments. It's handy enough to where you should have CS bound, but not used enough to were it should be a common occurance. I mean... if you're near the boss and people have full health etc, shock is on cd, mana is fine, then judge and slap that hoe. Judging is always worth it... gives nice mana, refreshes your haste etc.

[Xs]

If you're in melee anyway and you know you'll need LoD within your next HS CD then fine, but if there is any other healing to be done its not worth the clicks

Fights like Maloriak and to a much lesser degree Big Gay Dragons to name a few

[Lythos]

Simca pretty much hit the nail on the head. But on nef I am usually healing the tank who is tanking nef in p1 so I am able to cs him too giving me 100% mana going in to p2. P2 tough being short on group heals but meleeing that add for quick holy power helps out a ton. Need all the light of dawn spams i can get.

[Jethroo]

Personally i think HP is always nice to have, but to get it through CS i think it's more of a situational thing just like LoD or WoG (rarely use LoD for heroic though). If you have a small break in the fight or you running by boss with HS on CD go ahead and use it, but otherwise HS on CD with other spells filling is the way to go. Most people use holy light as a filler because you dont really lose any mana, in fact i gain mana while I'm casting it + there is a chance to proc the Daybreak talent for no CD HS. Also i'm not a pro holy pally, but doing okay in raids at 9/12 normal in 10 man. If i remember i'll try it out some this week in raid if i get a chance, but i have to say i'm not 100% of how great it is in cata since i havn't used it sense HM 25 LK.

P.S. i also have a bad habit of forgeting judgement.

[BoomChickn]

I usually crusader strike if there is a mob close to me, and only under light damage and aoe. It is a good secondary source of holy power that can be used often. Most reasons I have to use it have already been explained in this thread.

[deneweth]

One this to consider is how our AoE heals work. Melee will always be stacked but ranged dps is usually spread out. Meleeing for mana and HP is extremely nice for light damage phases, but on progression content I would be hesitant to risk falling behind.

The mana and HP gain are somewhat offset by the time lost, but on AoE heavy fights HP generation is obviously more valued. Outside of AoE healing the advantages and disadvantages even out in my mind with the balance being tipped on a per encounter basis.

[TheJellyTouch]

Simca pretty much hit the nail on the head. But on nef I am usually healing the tank who is tanking nef in p1 so I am able to cs him too giving me 100% mana going in to p2. P2 tough being short on group heals but meleeing that add for quick holy power helps out a ton. Need all the light of dawn spams i can get.

That's similar to what I do. Even in p3 when I'm healing the MT [usually not excessive dmg] and the raid. The other holy paladin is chasing around the OT's who are getting raped xD

I'd say I use CS somewhat regularly on maybe 1/3 of the encounters. Most of these are encounters where movement is predictable and standing in melee is perfectly fine. I also only go for CS when I feel completely comfortable with mechanics. No point using it if you don't understand the damage being done.

A lot of what you can do is also limited or expanded by the rest of your healing team's abilities and of course the comp. Adding to this obv if I were raiding 10m's I would rarely CS except maybe when mechanics call for the entire raid to stack on a boss.

---------- Post added 2011-01-26 at 10:39 AM ----------

Blessed Life is situational, sure, but there are enough fights that constantly ping you with random damage in Cataclysm (like literally, every single fight) that the talent is worth it to me. And this is coming from a very, very big Pursuit of Justice advocate in early Wrath (before Ulduar when Divine Sacrifice was made amazing). I just feel like I can't get it without literally throwing points away.

I've looked at logs to see the hp return from this. I don't find it very useful. Gaining hp only very occasionally and passively isn't something that fits with my playstyle but I understand that some people like it. I'm sure it is beneficial if you're going into predictable coinciding direct damage and you can plan to have a free hp ready to go, I just can't think of many times that I'm not already ready with whatever heal it is I need. I would have to pay more attention to make use of it and not auto pilot through some bosses But I still don't think it does much.

This being said I'd love to find a complete list of raid mechanics that are considered direct damage- might be more useful than I think but... so far the logs I've seen aren't impressive.