Orc vs Goblin racials for DPS in raiding

[Deleted]

Thinking about race changing to Orc or Goblin. Is there any consensus on which racials will produce a higher DPS output in raiding? I want to know if Blood Fury or Time is Money (possibly with Rocket Barrage factored in) has a marginal DPS increase over the other for PvE. I know that both races are the top two for Rogues, but which has a slight edge over the other for pure DPS?

[Meijnrr]

Are you combat or mutilate just wondering? And I think Goblin is a little better because of the Rocket Jump, but I could be wrong. Also I don't know how much damage the rocket does when used to attack.

[Chuppa]

The rocket does between 4k - 5k damage. However when you used the rocket barrage it puts rocket jump on cooldown as well.

Also, to answer the OP this is straight from EJ

Goblin
Goblins, the new Horde race, are one of the two better races for Horde. Passively, Goblins have a relatively ok 1% increased attack speed from Time is Money (not haste which would give you more energy regen). Additionally Goblins have a shared cooldown ability that will either deal some fire damage to a target (Rocket Barrage) or launch you forward (Rocket Jump) which can be quite useful as a melee class since some encounters require some movement to avoid boss mechanics or change targets.

Orc
Orcs, the other strong race for Horde Assassiantion rogues, have Blood Fury, a relatively strong DPS cooldown providing 1170 AP (at 85) every 2 minutes which can be used in conjunction with every Vendetta and/or Coldblood. Unfortunately, the other racials that are relatively strong for other classes are completely useless for Assassination rogues.


So, I do not think there is a clear cut answer. What would you like to look at the back of while you play? What pleases you more cosmetically? If you get sick of one change again :P

[Deleted]

Sorry, forgot to specify that. I'm specced for Mut. The Rocket Jump does seem a situationally useful ability and is certainly something I'm considering. However, I'd really like to know the relative worth of Time is Money vs Blood Fury for pure DPS. I _think_ Blood Fury grants over 1k AP every 2 minutes and TiM is a 1% increase to white hit. What I don't know is which one is likely to produce higher output in a raid. They're probably fairly similar but I'd like to know if one is marginally better. Can't seem to find any hard numbers for it.

[SpikeXX]

I race changed to Goblin from Troll maybe 2 weeks after the expansion. I don't have the numbers to back it, but my general impression has been that its really dependent on the boss. (The other raiding rogue in guild is an Orc, and I'm basing it off what I've seen.)

To make proper use of the Goblin's racial you need to really maximize your time on the boss, so it suffers on add fights and the like.
The Rocket Jump has saved my skin countless times on the Atramedes fight alone. The Barrage isn't much, but usually find a place for it.
It does make for a more stable dps line, which I've found to be a better gauge for my own damage from fight to fight.

Orc's has the burst, and I think greater potential when the stars align, (Bloodlust, Pot, Vendetta,).
Add fights you can choose when to pop it as well, whether they need to go down faster, or keep it on the boss.

I seem to recall Goblin leaning towards the higher dps, but really dependent on high up time.

As a side note, Goblins really small, like... stare an imp in the eye small, and there's always some Tauren that finds his way on top of you. Sounds petty I know, but it can sometimes hard to get your positioning down when Melee are all clumped together.

[ddk]

If you're good at lining up your CD's, especially with combat, then I'd probably say go orc. A blood furie'd, adrenaline rushing, trinketed rogue can be nasty high DPS. If, however, you're more the type who concentrates on positioning and movement, then the gobbo is the way to go. I absolutely love rocket boots and the 1% haste is nice as a passive for mutilate.

One thing, though, I would never, ever, use the rocket barrage in an instance, unless I wasn't taking the instance run seriously. It's a massive DPS loss and takes away rocket boots (they're both on the same cooldown) which you never know when you might need.

[shadowboy]

Orc's blood fury puts it ahead overall. Goblin's time is money is slightly worse than troll berserking, it's the damage from the rocket barrage that pulls them ahead of trolls. Goblins, trolls, and orcs are VERY close.

If you are a combat rogue using an axe or fist weapon, Orcs are VERY clearly the best race (blood fury and +3 expertise). If you are a combat rogue using a sword or mace, the troll racial can be used to line up with killing spree/adrenaline rush to increase its effectiveness. You can also line it up with vendetta at least once per fight for assassination, twice if the fight goes over 6 minutes.

[ddk]

Goblin's time is money is slightly worse than troll berserking, it's the damage from the rocket barrage that pulls them ahead of trolls.

I'd like to see stats proving that.

[r0773nluck]

Orc's blood fury puts it ahead overall. Goblin's time is money is slightly worse than troll berserking, it's the damage from the rocket barrage that pulls them ahead of trolls. Goblins, trolls, and orcs are VERY close.

If you are a combat rogue using an axe or fist weapon, Orcs are VERY clearly the best race (blood fury and +3 expertise). If you are a combat rogue using a sword or mace, the troll racial can be used to line up with killing spree/adrenaline rush to increase its effectiveness. You can also line it up with vendetta at least once per fight for assassination, twice if the fight goes over 6 minutes.

this guy has no idea whats going on

[shadowboy]

I'd like to see stats proving that.

You don't need stats, it's simple math.

Troll racial is 20% haste for 10 seconds on a 3 minute cooldown. 20*10/180 = 1.1% haste averaged out, which is more than the goblin's flat 1%. Couple the fact that you can use the troll racial with cooldowns/trinkets and Berserking comes out even further ahead of Time is Money. It's the extra damage from rocket barrage that puts goblins VERY slightly ahead of trolls.

If you still doubt, plug a rogue into shadowcraft, run the dps as a troll and as a goblin, note the dps difference and you will find the dps difference is LESS than than the dps contribution of rocket barrage (the results tab has dps breakdowns). This means that if you removed rocket barrage from the rotation, then troll dps will be higher than goblin dps.

[Phriven]

Don't need stats, it's simple math.

Troll racial is 20% haste for 10 seconds on a 3min cd. 20*10/180 = 1.1% haste averaged out, which is more than the goblin's flat 1%. Couple the fact that you can use the troll racial with cooldowns/trinkets and Berserking comes out even further ahead of Time is Money. It's the extra damage from rocket barrage that puts goblins VERY slightly ahead of trolls.

The bolded part is the part we want you to prove.

[Deleted]

Orcs, by far. Goblins are only useful if you plan to pvp and trolls are slightly below orcs.

[shadowboy]

The bolded part is the part we want you to prove.

I don't need to prove anything to anyone. You can prove it to yourself by doing what I said in my previous post. Plug a rogue into shadowcraft, run the rogue as a troll then as a goblin, look at the dps breakdown, and you will see that rocket barrage's dps contribution is larger than the dps difference. If that is not convincing enough, do it in simulationcraft, as well. In fact, it's even easier using simulationcraft--it doesn't use rocket barrage at all by default, so the dps goes down only by simply changing race=troll to race=goblin.

As an example: My rogue gets 18635 dps as a goblin, 18606 as a troll, and rocket barrage is 45 dps (18635 - 45 = 18590, which is less than 18606 based on my limited mathematical knowledge).

In simcraft, my rogue gets 18267 as a troll and 18253 as a goblin.

[Deleted]

1. you are assuming you are using berzerking as soon as combat starts, and that you would be using it every 3/6/9 mins.

2. Simulations are not accurate when trying to apply them to a raid situation.

This isnt simple maths, you dont just add, multiply, divide numbers and you have the answers, there are factors to be considered...

[wilzax]

You don't need stats, it's simple math.

Troll racial is 20% haste for 10 seconds on a 3 minute cooldown. 20*10/180 = 1.1% haste averaged out, which is more than the goblin's flat 1%. Couple the fact that you can use the troll racial with cooldowns/trinkets and Berserking comes out even further ahead of Time is Money. It's the extra damage from rocket barrage that puts goblins VERY slightly ahead of trolls.

If you still doubt, plug a rogue into shadowcraft, run the dps as a troll and as a goblin, note the dps difference and you will find the dps difference is LESS than than the dps contribution of rocket barrage (the results tab has dps breakdowns). This means that if you removed rocket barrage from the rotation, then troll dps will be higher than goblin dps.

what you fail to realize is that trolls have a .1% upper hand for 10 seconds and again 3 minutes later meanwhile goblins always have a 1% boost.. also excuse the poor grammar im on a horrible ipod touch atm. also, you can't say trolls will have a even higher qmount of haste because of trinkets because the goblin will also have these trinkets to theor disposal keeping the difference .1% for 10 seconds even after trinkets are popped. once again foegive me for the fail grammar and spellng mistakes

[Misdeed]

what you fail to realize is that trolls have a .1% upper hand for 10 seconds and again 3 minutes later meanwhile goblins always have a 1% boost.. also excuse the poor grammar im on a horrible ipod touch atm. also, you can't say trolls will have a even higher qmount of haste because of trinkets because the goblin will also have these trinkets to theor disposal keeping the difference .1% for 10 seconds even after trinkets are popped. once again foegive me for the fail grammar and spellng mistakes

he is talking about cooldown stacking. therefore making troll racial more beneficial. popping a 1500 agil trinket and berserking increases the value of the racial. the problem with other problem with use racials is, time off the boss due to mechanics increases the value of them and also fights not lasting intervals of 3 minutes increase the value. you don't get the value of 1% haste from the goblin racial if you aren't attacking, however while the cooldown of berserking is coming up and you're off the boss the value increases because you aren't losing DPS. a 1 minute fight (i know there are no 1 minute boss fights) would be 20% haste for 15s so it would equal out to 5ish% melee haste from the racial.

[Deleted]

The difference is miniscule, however there is a lot of movement in most encounters, making rocket jump handy as fuck. Yes, being at your target 2 seconds before other players gives you a lot of extra dps. Yes, the difference is still hardly noticable, pick whichever you think looks the coolest

[shadowboy]

what you fail to realize is that trolls have a .1% upper hand for 10 seconds and again 3 minutes later meanwhile goblins always have a 1% boost.. also excuse the poor grammar im on a horrible ipod touch atm. also, you can't say trolls will have a even higher qmount of haste because of trinkets because the goblin will also have these trinkets to theor disposal keeping the difference .1% for 10 seconds even after trinkets are popped. once again foegive me for the fail grammar and spellng mistakes

It's a 0.1% haste advantage AVERAGED OUT. It's a 19% haste advantage for 10 seconds every 3 minutes.

1.1% haste from the racial is a WORST CASE used-on-cooldown-without-stacking scenario when you use it at the start of the fight and the fight lasts exactly 3min, 6min, 9min, etc. Lets say the fight lasts 5 minutes. You have 2 uses of the racial with 1 minute left on the CD for the 3rd use. It averages out to 1.33% haste overall, but in this case the fight duration offers flexibility when you can choose the second use, say, during bloodlust. Lets say, best case scenario, that the fight lasts 6 minutes, 10 seconds. In that case the averaged out haste from the troll racial is 3.1% haste.

The goblin racial(s) have their uses to be sure. The rocket jump is situationally useful as a dps racial. I'm not arguing that trolls are better or worse than goblin. I'm saying the gap is tiny, as misdeed pointed out. Trolls also have 15% snare duration reduction as a racial which is a passive and always there, even when rocket jump would be on cooldown. Again, a situationally useful racial. My point is that Time is Money is INFERIOR to berserking as a pure dps racial, as opposed to utility. The goblins-as-a-higher-dps race statement from EJ assumes you use the rocket barrage on cooldown on a patchwerk style fight (ignoring the target uptime that the rocket jump can offer in movement fights, which is really hard to quantify as it can vary on a fight-by-fight basis).

[Deleted]

It's a 0.1% haste advantage AVERAGED OUT. It's a 19% haste advantage for 10 seconds every 3 minutes.

1.1% haste from the racial is a WORST CASE used-on-cooldown-without-stacking scenario when you use it at the start of the fight and the fight lasts exactly 3min, 6min, 9min, etc. Lets say the fight lasts 5 minutes. You have 2 uses of the racial with 1 minute left on the CD for the 3rd use. It averages out to 1.33% haste overall, but in this case the fight duration offers flexibility when you can choose the second use, say, during bloodlust. Lets say, best case scenario, that the fight lasts 6 minutes, 10 seconds. In that case the averaged out haste from the troll racial is 3.1% haste.

The goblin racial(s) have their uses to be sure. The rocket jump is situationally useful as a dps racial. I'm not arguing that trolls are better or worse than goblin. I'm saying the gap is tiny, as misdeed pointed out. Trolls also have 15% snare duration reduction as a racial which is a passive and always there, even when rocket jump would be on cooldown. Again, a situationally useful racial. My point is that Time is Money is INFERIOR to berserking as a pure dps racial, as opposed to utility. The goblins-as-a-higher-dps race statement from EJ assumes you use the rocket barrage on cooldown on a patchwerk style fight (ignoring the target uptime that the rocket jump can offer in movement fights, which is really hard to quantify as it can vary on a fight-by-fight basis).

And again total wrong as frist you will never use rocket barrrage as sorce of dps! as its on global cd wich means you will miss a main atack..... wich is more dps then the shity rocket..... PLZ cheak facts before speaking all you said so far is proven wrong... goblins haste gives your more dps then both orc and troll... this is nothing even to talk about .. as you said its simpel math. if you say otherwise plz show numbers on you clames....

[Deleted]

And again total wrong as frist you will never use rocket barrrage as sorce of dps! as its on global cd wich means you will miss a main atack..... wich is more dps then the shity rocket.....

Troll? You miss plenty of GCD's as mutilate, waiting for envenom to fall off and so on, it's not a dps loss per se