Top hunter in my guild says go for 658 haste?

[Ulaenyth]

riiight, sorta wasted on us

Eh it is and it isn't we have higher crit chance then casters so if the warlock is a greedy SoB he hits a hunter, if he is a really nice person he hits the healer and if he is in the middle you'll get it on the other lock or mage

[spitfirek]

Im currently at 568 haste rating(as a goblin) which gives me 4.44% haste and have 1.67sec cobra shots. I've tried to drop it more but the next lowest I can get is 540 rating, which makes my cobra shot 1.68sec casts.

Is my ui bugged or the tooltip? Im wondering cuz I usually avg around 17-18k dps in raids(I do get higher on some fighs). I am currently ilvl 355 with 8.13% hit, 4.44% haste(+1% goblin), 17.06% mastery, 24.47% crit, 5162agi... all unbuffed.

[Gunba]

Not sure if it's really worth bothering with haste at all, since it relies on you actually getting 3 cobra shots in per explosive shot to be of any use, and how often this happens in a real fight is questionable. There are a hundred different factors that will prevent you from getting 3 cobra shots in even with 1.66s cast time.

[Lilcheeks]

Not sure if it's really worth bothering with haste at all, since it relies on you actually getting 3 cobra shots in per explosive shot to be of any use, and how often this happens in a real fight is questionable. There are a hundred different factors that will prevent you from getting 3 cobra shots in even with 1.66s cast time.

The only factors I can really think of is putting up black arrow, applying serpent sting to a new target, KS or AoE. Otherwise that's what aspect of the fox is for.

[Koumaru]

As a non-goblin, you need 758 haste rating to achieve the magic 3 Cobras between Explosives (1.66658s shot time, 1 rating less yields 1.66670s). As a goblin, you need exactly 623 to get there (1.66666s shot time). Not sure where this "658" number even came from. That gives you a Cobra Shot speed of 1.66233s. Does this top hunter in the OP's guild specifically recommend burning 35 rating points to account for exactly 4ms of lag (which it may not even do -- yay spell queue)?

Not sure if it's really worth bothering with haste at all, since it relies on you actually getting 3 cobra shots in per explosive shot to be of any use, and how often this happens in a real fight is questionable. There are a hundred different factors that will prevent you from getting 3 cobra shots in even with 1.66s cast time.

A hundred? Really? Can you list them? I don't think there are even that many gimmick fights with slowing effects in the game, going back to Vanilla. And are you using "you can't guarantee you'll always get in three" as an argument against bothering to gear for the extremely more common scenario that you can do so?

Or are you talking about the opening rotation, or breaking rotation to apply Black Arrow or Multi-Shot cleave?

The most common scenario is still that you do squeeze off 3 Cobras between Explosives. And not gearing for it because sometimes you can't isn't doing much to help your dps.

[Kuldrad]

It's 3% haste and ~1-1.5k dps for us because our explosive shot/black arrow/serpent sting are affected by it. Its not "wasted" at all.
As for haste, currentelly I am going with roughly 700 myself, as I follow the spreadsheet religiously. Reforging into the 757 haste cap (spot on, even) yeilds me a 200 dps loss according to FD spreadsheet. Which means I havent. With this, I managed to hold nr 1 on Argaloth25 (pure nukeage patchwerk fight) for a week, been pushed down to nr 3 surv hunter now though.
The thing is, 1.67 + 1.67 + 1.67 = 5.01 seconds. As far as my understanding goes, if you do not push explosive shot more than 5.02 seconds back, then it is fine dps wise - anymore and you start to lose dps on it. Which means you have the tightest rotation ever. 1.66+1.66+1.66 allows for alot more human error due to giving you a total of 4.98 seconds spent, and is more realistic for any human being that does not know the fight in his or her sleep, and is able to predict WHEN to switch to fox to move, and to never stop attacking.

You apparently don't know that FD does not model haste accurately. Hasn't since Cata droped. You will in fact NOT lose dps going from 700 to 757 haste.

[Dhestroyer]

The only factors I can really think of is putting up black arrow, applying serpent sting to a new target or KS. Otherwise that's what aspect of the fox is for.

Guess you haven't done any raids? They aren't tank and spank, stand in one spot, not have to dodge shit WotLK fights anymore. I have a 1.7 sec cobra shot cast time, I still pull top or near top dps in raids. Why? Because very rarely am I able to just stand in one spot and pewpew till the boss is dead. Having a 1.6 sec Cs is all real cool on paper an shit, where everything is hypothetical and everyone gets in their perfect, never missing a single shot, rotation in. But nobody is perfect, you're running around and shit, maybe not in Fox, maybe you are, but are you always in range when adds are trying to rape you, or fire is coming at you, or shadow missiles are plummeting down at you? Are you always facing the boss or did the tank fuck up and pull him outta range, or is he kiting him around or wtf ever else can happen. Everyone depends on a spreadsheet to show them what they should be doing. Spreadsheets are just a base for you to get an idea of the area you should be in. You guys need to test shit for yourselves. If you know your play style and know that you never hit every single rotation perfectly, then don't base all your stats on that kind of scenario. Base them on how you know you play. I don't hit every single rotation perfectly, so instead of my 1.6 second Cs I have more crit/mastery. Its stupid that everyone thinks they have to play a single certain way to be on top. I know I'll be flamed for my opinion and that's cool, shit's kinda random cuz I took a lil pill and can't figure out how to say everything I want to so that it makes sense. Its coo, I still <3 you all.

[Lilcheeks]

Guess you haven't done any raids? They aren't tank and spank, stand in one spot, not have to dodge shit WotLK fights anymore. I have a 1.7 sec cobra shot cast time, I still pull top or near top dps in raids. Why? Because very rarely am I able to just stand in one spot and pewpew till the boss is dead. Having a 1.6 sec Cs is all real cool on paper an shit, where everything is hypothetical and everyone gets in their perfect, never missing a single shot, rotation in. But nobody is perfect, you're running around and shit, maybe not in Fox, maybe you are, but are you always in range when adds are trying to rape you, or fire is coming at you, or shadow missiles are plummeting down at you? Are you always facing the boss or did the tank fuck up and pull him outta range, or is he kiting him around or wtf ever else can happen. Everyone depends on a spreadsheet to show them what they should be doing. Spreadsheets are just a base for you to get an idea of the area you should be in. You guys need to test shit for yourselves. If you know your play style and know that you never hit every single rotation perfectly, then don't base all your stats on that kind of scenario. Base them on how you know you play. I don't hit every single rotation perfectly, so instead of my 1.6 second Cs I have more crit/mastery. Its stupid that everyone thinks they have to play a single certain way to be on top. I know I'll be flamed for my opinion and that's cool, shit's kinda random cuz I took a lil pill and can't figure out how to say everything I want to so that it makes sense. Its coo, I still <3 you all.

I don't have those problems, lay off the pills bro, you sound ridiculous.

[Kuldrad]

At the very least replace those green gems. Agility is worth so much more than any of the secondary stats.

They are worth so much more than any secondary stat that you should not be gemming anything other than agility. There are VERY few socket bonuses worth a non-red gem. Never gem for haste or hit, always reforge for it.

[Lilcheeks]

They are worth so much more than any secondary stat that you should not be gemming anything other than agility. There are VERY few socket bonuses worth a non-red gem. Never gem for haste or hit, always reforge for it.

Yessir I'm with you

[Dhestroyer]

I don't have those problems, lay off the pills bro, you sound ridiculous.

Yea, I feel pretty good tho. I wasn't directing anything at you in specific, I think I was just ranting in general. I dunno, I'm drifting in and out.

[Lilcheeks]

Yea, I feel pretty good tho. I wasn't directing anything at you in specific, I think I was just ranting in general. I dunno, I'm drifting in and out.

Lol, I take it back then, you're ok in my book.

[Gunba]

A hundred? Really? Can you list them? I don't think there are even that many gimmick fights with slowing effects in the game, going back to Vanilla. And are you using "you can't guarantee you'll always get in three" as an argument against bothering to gear for the extremely more common scenario that you can do so?

I like how you pretend I meant 'a hundred' literally, but since you asked:

-SrS, BA, AS, HM
-AOE (Including setting up explo trap)
-Switching targets
-Bloodlust/Heroism/RF
-Haste procs/on use (Engineering, Prestors, etc.)
-Minus haste effects (Limited to dungeons I think)
-Latency (yes, latency still applies to ES)
-Positioning requirements (not always in range of a target)
-Simple user error (inevitable when doing progression)

The most common scenario is still that you do squeeze off 3 Cobras between Explosives. And not gearing for it because sometimes you can't isn't doing much to help your dps.

You know what's not going to help your DPS? Going for a theoretical DPS increase (according to a sim that is known to handle haste and AS poorly) that can be easily offset (to the point where it will actually hurt your DPS) by a number of different game mechanics and situations. The sim predicts I will gain 17 DPS (with 300 haste replacing 300 crit) on a fight where I stand still for 5 minutes and perfectly execute my rotation with low latency - how much are you going to gain in any real fight? I'd honestly expect to lose DPS on any fight that isn't BH.

[refire]

So going for a theoretical dps increase won't help my dps, but going for a zero math calculated, random guess of what you may think is better will? What are you trying to say Gunba? 757 is an incredibly easy haste number to reach. The stat you'll be losing in order to gain it is mastery, which happens to also be not good. So reach an extremely easy to hit plateau with one bad stat, or ignore both bad stats and just take them as they come and hope you do better than at least some form of a simulation is providing?

Every 22 seconds you can re apply BA, you won't be re-applying SrS unless your target switching, same goes for HM, AS can essentially be left out of the conversation since completely ignoring AS all together is only a 90 dps loss. Bloodlust and Heroism let you fit in 4 cobras instead of 3 with a 757 haste number, currently haste procs on use are bad, essence of the Cyclone and Fluid death both beat heroic Prestors, engineering uses tazik's shocker and will be using synapse. Positioning as you listed above is a GCD loss either way, its completely ignored in anything concerning haste. Human error should also be ignored. If human error isn't ignored you might as well stack stam just in case human error distracting shots the boss and you have to survive a few hits with deterrence on cd.

Seriously what was the point of your post? The amount of haste required to fit another gcd in when reapplying srs, hm, ba, or shooting an AS is currently outrageous for this gear level. Gear for 757, use your damage que to your advantage to combat latency.

[PsychOfMSE]

I honestly like to have my haste a bit over getting my cobra shot to 1.67 seconds. My haste is sitting around 1K which gives me some fudge room to still fit my 3 cobra shots in between explosive shots on movement intensive fights where you may not be able to get the 3 cobra shots off EXACTLY one after another.

[Koumaru]

I honestly like to have my haste a bit over getting my cobra shot to 1.67 seconds. My haste is sitting around 1K which gives me some fudge room to still fit my 3 cobra shots in between explosive shots on movement intensive fights where you may not be able to get the 3 cobra shots off EXACTLY one after another.

Assuming exactly 1000 haste rating (yeah, I know you said around 1k), you're losing 1.35% potential crit chance to shave all of an additional 29ms off your Cobra Shot time. That's less than 1/34th of a second, and probably not giving you any amount of "fudge room" that will make up for the loss of crit.

Just practice hitting Cobra Shot while moving, and you really shouldn't have any more difficulty doing it then than while standing still (assuming you switch to AotF, of course). But if it's a really hectic fight where mechanics may sometimes force you out of range or cause you to otherwise slip up or whatever, 29ms less per shot (87ms less per cycle) won't even be a noticeable difference.

Edit: For reference, delaying your next Explosive Shot by 87ms is a damage loss equal to 1.45% of your average Explosive Shot (all 3 ticks combined). Increasing the crit chance of 3 Cobras and an Explosive by 1.35% each is a greater normalized damage gain than 1.45% of an Explosive Shot (though exactly how much of a gain depends on your previous crit rate). I didn't mention Auto Shot there because the gain in haste is actually a gain of 0.43% Auto-Shot damage over the crit. But a 0.43% Auto-Shot gain isn't huge for SV spec.

Edit #2: Crap. I think I just explained why getting to the soft haste cap isn't even that important until you have a high crit rate already. Whoops! But nonetheless, the point stands that exceeding the soft cap doesn't do much for you at all.