The theory of giving Tricks

[Veyne]

The OP is terribly uninformed.

Strafir, you can't win an argument by being constantly hostile and claiming everyone else to be an idiot.

Simple maths.

15% damage increase, 20% uptime. That equals 3% damage increase. I'm not going to go search WoL to find the true highest DPS, but it seems like the respectable average of the lowest dps on the screenshots of world firsts is approximately 25,000 dps. 10 percent of that is 2,500 dps and 1 percent is 250 dps. 3% would equal 750 dps.

The highest I remember seeing on those world first screenshots was a Death Knight with around 35,000 dps. More simple maths. 10% of that is 3,500 dps, 1% would be 350 dps. 3% would then be 1050 dps.

There you have it. On those world first kills, the difference of giving Tricks to the to the lowest DPS and giving it to the highest DPS (which, btw, the Rogues were in the higher range anyway), would be a whopping 300 dps.

For simplicity, lets find the average DPS of each raider by simply adding 25,000 and 35,000 and dividing by 2. Hell, you don't even need a calculator. The average would be about 30,000. Let's multiple that number by 18 (25 raiders minus 5 healers and 2 tanks). That's 540,000 raid DPS (roughly, not counting the tanks).

Yes, a 300 DPS difference from a group that's already dealing 540,000 raid DPS.

That doesn't even register at a hundredth of a percent of your raid's DPS.

If your group is playing right, a 300 dps difference is never going to make or break an encounter. At the current numbers, it won't even come remotely close.

Math is hard.

[Krid]

Pretty sure using tot doesn't make or break raid fights.

[Imbashiethz]

Some people are ignorant. Thats why.

[t0rc]

OP is a moron.

[Longview]

So much hate in this thread.

If your rogues aren't in the top, they are doing it wrong. Also 20 yards range, meaning you have to run away from the boss to put it on range dps most of the time. I don't know about now-a-days, but in Icecrown Citadel warriors had ridiculous threat issues when they neared BiS.

What some people seem to have missed is that currently every rogue worth his salt is running with the glyph, which reduces the damage done with 5%.

[Mixon]

why do mages exchange FM? Why do warlocks exchange DI?


Threat from Tott is no longer permanent so it doesn't matter anymore.

exchanging DI would be a badddd move, if you are unsure of how it works i can explain.

[Grindfreak]

I've always tricked the highest dps in range, and I always had 3-4 ready made target macros which I would cover based on priority and also based on who was still within managable threat.
On many fights people get highly mobile, and if the macro lits up when tricks is up I tricks the ranged instead of a melee dps but only if the ranged is higher on dps.

This is something I only did when we had things on farm.

This means you need to have alot of attention on your threat and damage meters, and this is rarely possible on complex progression fights where things are still surprising you, one reason why people go all out on tricking rogues is because you dont need to pay attention to their threat,
and they are generally high enough on dps to justify giving it to them always which in return gives you full attention on the fight itself.

the damage difference you gain from tricking that dps doing 1k more dps overall generally does not make enough difference to justify taking your attention from other parts of the fight.

This is at least how I've viewed this issue since we were handed a damage increasing misdirect.


Off Topic: Just because people don't share your view does not mean they are ill-informed or stupid, treat each other with a bit more respect.

P.S. was getting reports about the thread name being offensive so I took the liberty of swapping out the R word
I do believe this is a needed discussion, just need to do it properly.

[Mixon]

also it depends entirely on weather your raid in progression oriented or just playing for fun and trying a few raid bosses. when i used to be a GM we we focused on min maxing and trix and FM always went to the highest dps that it was applicable to, not because it has to but its just like flasking or bringing a well fed, its not gonna break the fight if you don't but it wont hurt it either. also farm content is a great way to find out who your highest dpsers are each week if for some reason your leading a guild and don't already know =)

[Daelos]

How can you possibly think its even remotely the same thing giving someone a few percent of crit vs giving
someone a flat 15% damage increase?

What? I'm pretty fucking sure that Focus Magic gives you much more dps thank Tricks, see, tricks gives you 10% damage for 6 SECONDS, Focus Magic gives you 3% crit ALL THE TIME. Come on, that's not even remotely the same thing!

[Anagra]

I am a bit amazed that is no decent reply for this ...

Now the reasons why usually rogues trick each other or in case there are 3 rogues in a raid,
we talking now about the more organized raids like guild raids where some planing is in place also with players who play often together:

> Rogues make macros with tricks target, also decide rotations between them, who is giving to who in case are 3+ rogues in a raid
> Tricks boost also threat not just damage ... SO:
- Rogues can use the ability Feint ( reduce threat by 5% ... )
- Rogues can Vanish and reset threat
- Night Elf Rogues can Shadowmeld

In conclusion rogues have an entire arsenal to reduce and eliminate threat, while other classes as i know doesn't have such a rich arsenal.
SO a rogue can expose himself or afford to be exposed to threat risk having the possibility to reduce and/or eliminate the risk
with reduced impact on dps rotation both as rotation, and time spent with the procedure ...

The above are the main reasons as i know ... others are more or less speculations ...

[Bobbojonno]

OMG i cant believe this is still going.... its very simple... no other class will be able to handle the burst dmg and that burst to threat all at once and still do max dmg. Only a rogue because they generate the least amount of threat for their dps and tanks and of course very weak dps can handle it probably but why bother giving it to them.

[shadowboy]

OMG i cant believe this is still going.... its very simple... no other class will be able to handle the burst dmg and that burst to threat all at once and still do max dmg. Only a rogue because they generate the least amount of threat for their dps and tanks and of course very weak dps can handle it probably but why bother giving it to them.

All dps classes/specs produce the same threat per damage. Passive and talented threat reductions are gone. Rogues just have a better threat management toolbox than most other classes. A rogue that hits for 15k produces 15k threat. A warrior that hits for 15k produces 15k threat, etc.

[Sesshou]

OMG i cant believe this is still going.... its very simple... no other class will be able to handle the burst dmg and that burst to threat all at once and still do max dmg. Only a rogue because they generate the least amount of threat for their dps and tanks and of course very weak dps can handle it probably but why bother giving it to them.

Actually I'm pretty sure we generate the same amount of threat per dps as other classes. Though the amount of threat needed to actually pull agro while at range is higher.

[bigjenk]

I made a post explaining that even if the rogue is pretty bad compared to most of your raid and he were to use tricks to someone blowing cds each time and bothered to make sure they were in range and identified who needed it by reading whisper macros or by vent being cluttered constantly it would still be in the neighberhood of 100 dps increase for the raid if done perfectly. That is roughly the same amount of damage over 5 min fight if he lets his energy cap for 3 seconds the whole fight while trying to find the optimal person for tricks each and every time not to mention just a hassle while doing progression fights.

[Infective]

All dps classes/specs produce the same threat per damage. Passive and talented threat reductions are gone. Rogues just have a better threat management toolbox than most other classes. A rogue that hits for 15k produces 15k threat. A warrior that hits for 15k produces 15k threat, etc.

WTB back our 30% passive threat reduction. And our swirly ball.